I don’t understand this weird American obsession with flag. I was looking at some photos of Trump’s rallies. Flags everywhere - on shirts, hats, glasses etc. And this bizarre cult of the flag - “it cannot touch the ground” etc.
At the end of the day the flag is just a piece of cloth. If you worship any flag or take offense to any flag, you need to get a life.
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Coming from a country that doesn’t have this sort of thing it’s really weird as an outside observer. Students have to swear allegiance to the flag every morning too which is the sort of thing I would imagine happens in north Korea or dictator states.
They don’t have to. It would be unconstitutional if they did. What happens sometimes unfortunately, for teachers to sort of discourage not taking part, or potentially punish the student for an “unrelated” reason. The school I went to only did the pledge once a year though.
I was suspended from school multiple times for refusing to pledge allegiance when I was in high school in the states.
Then you would have had legal recourse to sue and no one told you your rights.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/west-virginia-v.-barnette-the-freedom-to-not-pledge-allegiance
No one tells children their rights and this country basically operates on the idea that they don’t have rights other than don’t be raped or made to work.
That said, kids get punished for not doing the pledge every day by power tripping teachers, they have for decades and will for decades more
It was a class rule that we had to recite the pledge. I was suspended for not following the rules of the class, not for not reciting the pledge. But this was the early 90s and I was more worried about not being beat by my mother than I was about my rights.
Except a law that forces you to do something you have a constitutional right not to do isn’t valid and wouldn’t stand up in court, so still wrongly suspended and you would have had a case either way. But, not much to be done about it now, so probably a moot point anyway.
You do though because the teacher will punish kids who don’t do it. Is there an official law or rule? No, but that doesn’t stop power tripping teachers and admin from punishing kids that don’t toe the absolute obedience line
That flag worship thing always seemed like a weird cult thing to me. I suppose Americans might not see it that way since they grew up with it.
if everyone is doing it, it’s not a cult ;-)
But may still be a cult thing.
I mean, sure. But it’s a thin line between a religion and a cult :)
The context of the origin of the US’ pledge of allegiance is it came shortly after the end of their Civil War when there was still a lot o political tension. A desire was born to instill national loyalty in children.
However, today as mentioned by another commenter, students cannot be legally compelled to recite the pledge, nor punished for not reciting the pledge as decided by the Supreme Court in 1943 using the first amendment as the base.
I mean, i’m swiss and we did a thing called “Geistige Selbstverteidigung”, mental self-defense, with mythos of Wilhelm Tell & focus on independence in WW2. But we don’t anymore. Why do you still do?
Probably comes from a combination of belief in American exceptionalism, tradition, and either popular opinion remains with reciting the pledge or a lack desire to change.
States are managed individually for the most part and only 47/50 still require reciting the pledge (with some exceptions). Without a call for change from the people, it would be political suicide for any lawmaker to come out for a change like this. Opponents could use this decision as a claim of lack of patriotism.
Wait til you learn about the Texas Pledge!
I’m no nationalistic fanatic of the flag, but is it really so difficult to understand that the flag is a symbol?
Obviously each flag, be they for nations or other groups, represents more than just a piece of cloth to many people. Taking offence at someone else’s identifying with what a flag symbolizes is not okay. But, I tend to look skeptically at worship of any kind of idol, be it flag, cross, or text. That still doesn’t mean it’s okay to hate or persecute people for their beliefs, even if they appear silly to you and as long as they don’t hurt others.
One group can demonstrate their respect for the nation by physically following some rules around the flag and others can demonstrate their loyalty to their ideals of the nation being violated by flying the flag upside down or burning a flag.
A flag or banner is not just a piece of cloth, never has been.
you’re absolutely right, and reminds me of the George Carlin bit, hopefully I’ve remembered it right:
“flags are symbols for the symbol-minded”
Very well put.
IMHO human beings are more important than stupid symbols. If you don’t respect humans and their non violent choices, the symbol lost all its meaning, especially the one about being the “land of the free”.
IMHO human beings are more important than stupid symbols.
At no point did I make anything close to a claim like this. In fact I very clearly stated that hurting others was NOT OK.
I understand a flag having meaning. What I don’t understand is kids pledging allegiance to the flag everyday. That’s some North Korea shit.
it’s post-ww2, cold war-era creepy shit. Need to make soldiers and weed out the conspirators.
That’s some North Korea shit.
Nope. That’s some American shit. And it was American shit long before the DPRK even existed.
However, that wasn’t the only reason. The Pledge of Allegiance also was created to venerate the flag and “foster patriotism,”
From your own link. To me sounds more plausible than “it was Big Flag!”
Note that they have the legal right to refuse to do that.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/west-virginia-v.-barnette-the-freedom-to-not-pledge-allegiance
Sure, but kids are kids, they probably don’t understand that. It’s fucked up.
And they should, so spread the word and let parents know.
Warning: my takes on this are probably even more unpopular than the OP. I typically don’t mention them to avoid whining, but since we’re in a comm for unpopular opinions, might as well speak my mind.
A country flag is neither a symbol of your people, nor of the general population under the same government as you. It’s the symbol of the government itself - an abstract entity, best seen as some sort of tool.
People who wave flags strongly remind me cows shaking their arses to show that they’ve been branded as property. “MOO! I’M PROUD OF BEING OWNED! MOO!”
Against the above, some might argue that their governments’ flags used to represent some popular movement, or similar. Well, it is not your flag any more; co-opting symbols is bread-and-butter of exerting soft power over you.
And if you do feel the need of a flag for your identity… sorry to be blunt but you have millions of identities at your disposal; if the one that you pick is what subjects you, you probably need to touch some grass.
“But the president/king/minister said that…” - of course governments will tell you otherwise, it’s convenient for them. But, most likely, not for you.
I understand your view, but it depends on your country. In Denmark the flag is used in a different way in everyday life I think. And I would say there are good reasons to be proud of Denmark as a country and the people have done well to own the flag themselves in this way. But yea, it can also be used in bad ways.
My vaugue understanding as a dumb American is that folk in other countries by and large aren’t about repping flags in the first place, flying them, wearing them, etc
I can’t speak for other countries, but here in the UK the National flags tend to be flown for two reasons:
- Sporting events
There are shit loads of St George crosses being flown at the moment, because the England team has got through the Euro football finals. If we lose tonight, they’ll begin to disappear tomorrow.
- “Patrotism”
You’ll mostly see the Union flag being flown in areas of high racism. Deprived areas, where people have been made to believe that forrins took their jobs and welfare money. They display the flag to show that they’re “true Brits”, unlike all those brown folk.
Outside of this it’s quite unusual for regular people to display either of the national flags. I can’t say I’ve ever owned one, and I’m in my 40s. That said, I’m not terribly nationalistic. I’m proud of my country in terms of how it looks, and how we (now) preserve our long history, but I’m also painfully aware of the failings of the UK, and more specifically, England over the past few centuries.
Yeah, while obnoxious us patriotism used to be relatively innocent, at this point I immediately assume anybody with a flag is the absolute worst of us.
I’ve seen this in my chunk of South America. It isn’t exclusive to Americans.
Not in the same way. In the US I believe you swear to the flag or something? Which seems super strange to me.
In Denmark the flag is used in basically any celebration, especially birthdays. It’s common to have a cake with as many flags on as your age (usually for kids).
It’s common to have a cake with as many flags on as your age
Luckily that flag is easy to emulate. Imagine trying to frost 10 American flags onto a cake.
Oh usually it’s small paper flags stuck into the cake on small wooden sticks, not frosting :)
That makes more sense. Thanks.
Sorry for the battering of rhetorical questions, but…
…what is “to be proud of a country”?
Achievements of people from the past? But you see people with laudable achievements through the whole world. Why specifically those associated with your country, instead of, say, another? And more importantly, why aren’t we proud of what we, as individuals, do with our present?
Proud of a culture? I get that people relate to others sharing their culture; but contrariwise to what that Napoleonic meme says (with all its disgusting implications), countries don’t need to coincide with cultures. Cue to Switzerland, a clusterfuck since HRE times, faring far better than a Portugal who has been culturally homogeneous since 1100.
And even demarcating cultures, gets tricky and arbitrary. It’s all a bunch of continua. Eventually this sort of proudness will boil down to “I’m drawing the line HERE. This one is from this side of the line, so I’m proud of them. That one isn’t, so who cares.”
Is it being proud of your impact on others, through your everyday interactions? But most people in a country - even a small one (more like Andorra than Denmark) - are not meaningfully affected by you.
So, to keep it short: every single thing that we could be proud of, as human beings, is better serviced by either a smaller or bigger identity.
No need to be sorry :)
Achievements of people from the past?
[…]
Is it being proud of your impact on others, through your everyday interactions?
Definitely more the latter rather than the former. There is a great deal of trust in Danish society. There is a shared understanding, community and culture that Danes are proudly part of - proud because we believe it is a good culture (and I think the happiness scores that get released every so often for different countries speak for themselves).
But most people in a country - even a small one (more like Andorra than Denmark) - are not meaningfully affected by you.
I don’t see it like that. Yes, someone living in the other part of Denmark doesn’t directly affect me of course. But I do think they meaningfully affect me, even if in a small part. I think Denmark is still small enough that it matters that someone in the big city in the other part of the country is still connected to me by culture and a shared “zeitgeist”, if that makes sense.
Anyways, I hope you can maybe understand that for some people, there can be such a thing as being proud of your country. You don’t have to understand fully though, I understand it can be hard coming from another culture (also it’s not like I speak for all Danes obviously and some would certainly disagree with what I’m saying here). I would encourage you to try visiting Denmark one day and maybe see for yourself :)
Definitely more the latter […] countries speak for themselves).
What you talk about, concerning “trust in the Danish society”, is clearly a cultural matter. And, as I highlighted in the other comment, cultures neither coincide with countries, nor they should.
I don’t see it like that. Yes, someone living in the other part of Denmark doesn’t directly affect me of course. But I do think they meaningfully affect me, even if in a small part.
We could spend weeks discussing what to “meaningfully affect someone else” entails, but that would be pushing a boundary line back and forth between points of a gradient, to force a conclusion for either side. (That’s always a problem when trying to handle quantitative matters with qualitative labels.)
However: no matter where you put that line, it won’t coincide with the country, because some people from other countries affect you more than some people from the same country as you. Perhaps because they’re shaping what you think, perhaps because they have political power (even over other countries than yours), so goes on. (The opposite is also true - you’re likely affecting far some people from other countries than some other people from within your country.)
Anyways, I hope you can maybe understand that for some people, there can be such a thing as being proud of your country.
If I may be honest, the argumentation that you’re using is mostly the same as I’ve seen coming from other people. It is not a matter of “lack of understanding”, but disagreement.
cultures neither coincide with countries
I think that’s very reductionist. Countries clearly have a large influence on culture and culture often forms around countries as people in a country share borders and law and politics and all that.
Anyways, we can agree to disagree if you insist. I do think you’re being slightly closed-minded in this case though, but it’s not a big deal.
Countries clearly have a large influence on culture
To influence is not the same as to dictate. And the ways that a country influences culture of its citizens are, most of the time, shitty - cue to the linked example of Vergonha. (It’s actually a mild example, when you remember that massacres are a damn efficient way to have “a large influence on culture”.)
And, sure, there are even milder versions of that. And considerably less efficient.
culture often forms around countries as people in a country share borders and law and politics and all that.
And it forms also across the borders too, to such an extent that “we have the same head of state” and “we’re subjected to the same laws” become just a drop in an ocean. Food gets shared, people learn each other’s languages (or make a contact language in the spot, that eventually is passed to their children), fashion and architectural trends get mimicked… even the laws get mimicked. Or they simply are born in a place and move 5km next door, and that happens to be the other country already.
Of course, as long as the countries aren’t artificially trying to prevent that from happening.
Anyways, we can agree to disagree if you insist. I do think you’re being slightly closed-minded in this case though, but it’s not a big deal.
I don’t think that I’m being closed-minded, but that I’m taking more things into account than you are.
I get it. It’s not really a true choice though. Like bring born in the United States makes it difficult to move and become a citizen elsewhere, where I could waive a different flag (of choice).
It’s a simple as being born into it and being prideful of whatever it is you are. Typical pride involves surname, race/ethnicity, religion, state, country, brands of things… I mean… It’s whatever one is proud of having. Some things are by choice and others are by birth. 🤷
The difference between country and all those other “not a true choice” things that you listed is pointlessness.
A surname is still about your kin. Race is arguably also about kin*. Religion will probably dictate your behaviour, or at least principles. Brand is a damn silly identity, but I get that - it’s still about things that you enjoy.
Country though? In larger countries this boils down to “land that you never saw, people whom you’ll never interact”. In smaller ones it boils down to “a fraction of the lands you saw, and people whom you interacted with”. All because you pay taxes to the same government?
*I say “arguably” because race is still a damn silly identity, unless you use it to highlight oppression and gather other people to end said oppression. But past that I don’t think that anyone should see themself as an Amerindian, a black person, a white person, but rather as simply “a person”.
Brand is a damn silly identity, but I get that - it’s still about things that you enjoy.
I completely agree. Especially when someone gets so upset about criticism of their preferred OS owner (Apple vs. Android fanatics).
I’ll also add sports teams into the mix. Some people get so ravenous about their support for a certain team, or criticism of said team.
except governments change a lot more than flags do.
In those situations, the newer government is simply seizing the symbols and the perceived “legacy” of the older one. Typically while claiming itself a successor state of the former.
If you want to get technical about it, it’s a symbol of a nation’s military. That was what national flags were originally for.
it’s a symbol of a nation’s military
Not any more. You’re 100% right on the origin, but the symbol eventually became of the whole structure of power that [typically] includes the military.
That’s why for example even countries without an army or a navy still have flags.
People who wave flags strongly remind me cows shaking their arses to show that they’ve been branded as property. “MOO! I’M PROUD OF BEING OWNED! MOO!”
🤣🤣🤣 I am definitely stealing this one.
So a while ago an American who moved to the Netherlands asked about the proper way to store the Dutch flag.
The consensus was: put in a little plastic bag from a supermarket and shove in the back of a random closet.
What else would you do with a flag anyway? Assuming you even had a flag to begin with.
The national flag. What a weird American obsession.
In the UK we call them “flag shaggers” and they are laughing stock.
If you are not trolling and you genuinely don’t see the difference between occasional flag use and everyday cult typical for the USA and for the far right in other countries, you may be even slower than you appear from your comments here.
You seem unaware you’re drunking on yourself here by parroting me.
Zealots are the problems, not the entire population, as I’ve said.
You’re not one of those “readers”, huh?
Did you know that someone lapping you doesn’t mean you’re ahead of them?
You should really try again, that was embarrassing for you.
Real funny on this side, though.
Zealots are the problems, not the entire population, as I’ve said.
You are not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?
In other nations flag cult is limited usually to the far right. Everyone else is using flags sporadically - football events for example.
In the USA flag cult is an everyday occurrence applicable to the most of the population: flags in classrooms, on houses, everywhere. With their bizzare customs “not touching the ground” and other shit. Cult of a piece of cloth.
Do you get it now? If not try to read again. Slowly.
I’m so curious why you think repeating what I said about extremists being the problem and explicitly agreeing with me makes you such a “sharp tool”?
You think the US is the only country that doesn’t want their flag touch the ground? Please, list the countries you think prefer their flag to be flown in the dirt.
You are comedically ignorant.
It’s flattering, but If you want to wade into this argument to prove me wrong you’ll have to
- stop agreeing with my thesis
- get any of your details correct
Fuckin hell, don’t forget to breathe while you are typing 🙄
If you are forgetting to breathe while you’re typing and still think you’re ahead of the curve, I’ve diagnosed your problem as cerebral hypoxia.
It would definitely explain your trouble here.
In the USA flag cult is an everyday occurrence applicable to the most of the population: flags in classrooms, on houses, everywhere.
It’s not even close to everywhere, it’s mostly sporting events and the right weirdos
As for the flag not touching the ground: that’s flag code, military rules. Again, only the right cares
You’re being incredibly condescending about something while knowing 0 about it
"This was the beginning of what historians called ‘the cult of the flag,’ an almost religious feelings that the Americans have for the stars and stripes.”
https://time.com/4805114/flag-day-2017-history/
" The rare chance to wave the flag for a reason that had nothing to do with a political statement or a military campaign was irresistible for Americans who began putting the flag pattern on everything from breakfast waffles to garbage trucks. "
Yeah, perfectly normal 🙄
it’s absolutely everywhere in the USA and it’s creepy as fuck.
the issue is that even British flag shaggers have nothing on the crazy level muricans take this to.
But that’s not saying I disagree with you.
I doubt that one group of flag extremists is less crazy than another.
I think it’s easy to conflate different groups like Christian nationalists or peppers or the KKK with jingoistic idiots because a lot of them fly flags, but it’s in no way an accurate critique of an entire population any more than someone assuming that everyone in Spain is a fascist because some people who wave the Spanish flag are fascists.
I didn’t say anything about any groups being crazy.
Jeezus christ English is hard. 🤦♂️
the LEVEL. The LEVEL is “crazy”, which means “extremely high”. The amount of flag love shown by the most flag obsessed Brit isn’t as high as the love shown by muricans.
Shown where? In the media?
wow. You are not a native English speaker at all, are you?
“Shown” in this context means “expressed”.
It’s painfully obvious you’ve never been to the USA.
In Spain, unless it’s for a sports event involving a national team, nobody except fascists show the kind of devotion the Americans show for the flag. Most of the time, people don’t go wearing a flag or carrying one everywhere. Unless they are fascists.
These fascists are protesting against police brutality! Gross!
These disgusting fascists are having fun learning about history and being creative!
Oh look! You found one instance I’m which people were protesting and using the flag against police brutality. Have you ever been in Spain? If you find someone wearing a flag outside an event (ok, not only sports but sometimes also demonstrations) it’s a fascist. In America, people wear them every day, have them in their house, even in their car. They worship the flag. People in Spain don’t. Unless they are fascists.
I’m not going to comment about the second pic because there’s not even a single Spain flag there.
In America, people […] worship the flag. People in Spain don’t. Unless they are fascists.
No, no. You have it right. It’s the same in both places.
In one second I found a direct counterexample to your claim that all people enthusiastic about the Spanish flag are fascists.
“People in Spain don’t. Unless they are fascists.”
but
“people were protesting and using the flag against police brutality”.
Yes, I have been to Spain.
Spain has legal protections for its flag like the US, some zealots worshiping their flag like US zealots do, and the same clothing decorations with their national flag that the US does.
You’re talking about specific jingoistic fervor, not a nationwide obsession.
Some people take nationalism too far.
Zealotry is not country-specific.
I’m as far from a flag shagger as you’ll get; but slapping the union flag on the roof of a Mini isn’t about patriotism, it’s about the selling point of how the UK, and specifically London, was the epicentre of cool in the ‘60s. In this case, the flag is merely a design that represents something else.
This isn’t running it up a pole every morning to prove how much you love your country.
Preaching to the choir.
Extremists are the problem, not cars.
One of their points is that only Americans have branded their clothing and accessories with the flag; those examples show that isn’t true.
Yeah, true. But two of your examples appear to be sporting events, where it’s very, very common to find people waving their national flags. That’s not really product branding, that’s just how it is.
Preaching to the choir, that’s just how it is.
Gotta tell ya, dude- it’s actually no different in the U.S. You’ll see our flag on all of those products and more:
It’s just that the people who throw big fits about the flag (who also use things like flag napkins) don’t realize the hypocrisy. They will happily eat greasy fried chicken off of that plate and wipe the grease off of their mouths with that napkin and wad it up and throw both of them in the trash will then turn around and talk about someone disrespecting the flag.
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and a book is paper and ink. but it’s what it represents
And nationalism is astonishingly thinly veiled racism.
"There are two types of patriotism, although sometimes the two are mingled in the same breast. The first kind one might call nationalism; nationalists believe that all other countries are inferior in every respect and that one would do them a favour by dominating them. Other countries are always in the wrong, they are less free, less civilized, are less glorious in battle, are perfidious, prone to falling for insane and alien ideologies which no reasonable person could believe, are irreligious and abnormal. Such patriots are the most common variety, and their patriotism is the most contemptible thing on earth.
The second type of patriot is best described by returning to the example of General Fuerte. General Fuerte did not believe in ‘my country, right or wrong’; on the contrary, he loved his land despite the faults that he could so clearly see and that he labored to correct. It was his frequently stated opinion that anyone who supported his country when it was so obviously in the wrong, or who failed to see its faults, was the worst kind of traitor. Whereas the first kind of patriot really glories in his own irrationality and not in his country, General Carlo Maria Fuerte loved his country as a son loves his mother or a brother his sister."
–Louis de Bernieres, ‘The War for Don Emmanuel’s Nether Parts’
When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross
There is no when. Fascism is already here.
Nationalism is part of fascism. Just a FYI, it used to be illegal to make clothes out of the US flag. It’s only because of capitalism that it changed. And yes, any nation that goes flag crazy is stupid. Why do people fly a flag at their residence? We know what country we are in.
There is a reason why you see flags in Germany only for big sporting events usually.
Nationalism is part of fascism.
Being nationalistic in itself doesn’t in any way imply fascism.
But nationalism is still a key component of fascism. Or do you know a fascist system that is or was not nationalistic?
You’re correct, but it’s a non sequitur comment. There was no reason to point out the coincidental fact that “nationalism is part of fascism” and they’re right to refute the suggestion that fascism is implied by nationalism. It’s the other way around.
They may have been trying to implicitly claim that the US is fascist and that’s why it’s nationalistic. But… that’s not what fascism is - fascism is not a collection of traits but a small group of distinct class-collaborationist ideologies. The USA is liberalist, and that has resulted in it being an ultranationalist, militarist, socially-stratified state easily compared with fascist states.
US Flag Code:
Buddy of mine visited after some time in the army and I had to stop him from beating some other dude’s ass because they accidentally let their flag graze the ground barely, I’ll never understand loving the symbol of the people you supposedly joined up to protect over the ACTUAL FUCKING PEOPLE themselves. Thankfully, that behavior and the PTSD he got from being in the middle east for a while seem to have subsided.
I guess he got ptsd bc he participated in event of “military”. This event is characterised by idiots with flags tryin to kill other idiots with different flags in favor of some rich guys competition againt other rich guys. maybe he just mistaken this dude with the ‘other idiot’? Dunno.
I don’t disagree, seeing his (thankfully temporary) transformation into maximum chud massively changed my opinion on the military.
Good to hear he is fine right now! Anyway ptsd is a bitch and we should help ppl with it. Everythin gold for youand your friend!
Symbols are incredibly powerful things. It’s pretty easy to understand.
I’m an American and I don’t get it either.
My daughter got in trouble in the fifth grade for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance in class because, in her words, “it’s stupid to say a pledge to a flag.” I didn’t teach her that, she’s just a smart kid. For non-Americans, it is illegal to force a child to say that pledge, which was decided by the Supreme Court in the 1940s.
I let her shitty permanent “substitute” teacher (yay Indiana teacher pay being shit) know about this supreme court case and told her that if she got in trouble again, lawyers would get involved. She got super apologetic and claimed that my daughter wasn’t in trouble, she just took her out in the hall and had a private talk with her about it. Which is totally not punishing a schoolchild as everyone clearly knows. She never apologized to my daughter, but I knew she never would and I didn’t bother to push it.
My daughter never stood up to say the pledge again, as was her right.
Fuck the flag, it’s cloth, like you said. Americans should be revering the founding document and its amendments that gives them their rights, not something designed so that friendly ships wouldn’t fire cannons at each other.
also the pledge was invented by a flag salesman to sell more flags.
Whats funny is the flag fanatics are disrespecting it from a historical perspective. Paper plates and napkins dirtied up and tossed. Crumpled up tshirts tossed into bins or crumpled up on a floor.
All of which is against the flag code too, but while they’ll attack you for letting it touch the ground they’ll lose it if you can them out for their flag trunks cause laws end when their convenience and desires begin.
I’ve seen American flag diapers. These flag-worshipers wouldn’t even hesitate to let their kid shit in a flag diaper. It makes no sense.
The flag is just a symbol for the country, and the country is something are can be proud of if you have nothing else worthwhile to form your identity around.
