Ranked Choice Voting! Find your local RCV group and find ways to help get RCV implemented in your city! It’s something that sees opposition from republicans and democrats so you know it’s good.
I’m a fan of STAR voting myself, but anything is better than the first past the post system we have now.
If Star has traction in your city I say go for it! RCV just seems to have the most momentum.
Could you give a quick primer on what STAR voting is? I got a star from my teacher some 30 years ago, but somehow I doubt the system is based on those…
STAR, or Score Then Automatic Runoff, differs from RCV in that instead of ranking the candidates in order of preference, you can assign a rating to each, out of five stars. All of the stars are added for each candidate (score), and the ones with the fewest stars are eliminated (automatic runoff), then the scores are added again, another runoff, etc.
So say you love candidate C, you dislike candidate B, and you hate candidate A.
- In an RCV system, you’d rank C,B,A, and if C is eliminated, your full support goes behind B, but in the initial scoring round, only your top ranked candidate gets your full vote.
- In a STAR system, you’d maybe give C five stars, B two stars, and A zero stars. You’re still giving some support to B for the initial scoring round, but most of your support goes to C.
So the biggest difference is that in the initial scoring round, your preference for candidates other than your first choice are considered. Check out this video, which gives a good breakdown of voting systems and how they account for spoilage: https://youtu.be/oFqV2OtJOOg?si=8sLYiYpA7EnOt94i
It would be nice if they did that for the Democratic primaries.
It’d also be nice if they couldn’t just override the primary election results because it’s not a “real election”
Yes, I’m still a bit bitter about how the DNC treated Bernie in the 2016 election
As you should be as this is part of the reason why Ttump got elected in the first place.
As you should be as this is part of the reason why Ttump got elected in the first place.
Yep the same Kremlin propaganda operation that elected Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump also “supported” Bernie to help get Treason Trump elected.
Thanks Hillary. Oof.
Biden is fucking awesome! Love the guy!! So do all these people.
They did not override that one. Sanders did not even win the non superdelegates. That’s not to say the 2016 Democratic primary was not fucked. Party officials clearly had a preference and were obviously pushing Clinton. Showing the super delegates planned counts before they actually voted made it seem like Sanders had no chance. They need to minimize the number of super delegates so that they can only decide really close primaries.
Eh, fair enough. Undermined, cheated, manipulated, schemed, swindled, deceived, duped, defrauded, etc might have been a better description.
Sanders was crushed by Clinton in the 2016 primary elections. It was clear pretty much from the start that she was going to win. You take away all the super delegates, she still demolishes him. Did they show some favoritism towards her? Sure. Did they call him some bad names in private emails? Yes. Did she get a few questions before a debate? Yes. Is there any evidence that the election was rigged and stolen from Sanders? No, none at all.
This insistence that the Sanders was somehow robbed of the 2016 nomination (or 2020 nomination at that) is equivalent to Trump’s claim that he was robbed in 2020.
The DNC heavily undermined and consistently sabotaged Bernie’s campaign the point that the DNC chair stepped down and the DNC then apologized “for the inexcusable remarks made over email” that did not reflect the DNC’s “steadfast commitment to neutrality during the nominating process.” (From the wikipedia link below).
From the 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak: In the emails, DNC staffers derided the Sanders campaign. The Washington Post reported: “Many of the most damaging emails suggest the committee was actively trying to undermine Bernie Sanders’s presidential campaign.”
Bernie was absolutely robbed of a fair primary election.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak
The DNC heavily undermined and consistently sabotaged Bernie’s campaign the point that the DNC chair stepped down and the DNC then apologized “for the inexcusable remarks made over email” that did not reflect the DNC’s “steadfast commitment to neutrality during the nominating process.”
We all know and agree that they said bad things about him, but do you really think making “inexcusable remarks” in private actually supports the claim that he was “heavily undermined and consistently sabotaged”?
Bernie was absolutely robbed of a fair primary election.
The only “concrete” thing you cite is that “they said nasty things about him in private.” No actual evidence of them doing anything to undermine his chances. The worst concrete thing that came out is that Clinton got some debate questions early, but do we really think that is going to lead to a 12 point swing? No way.
Convenient you skip over the undermine his campaign portion of my previous comment. But the fact that the Chair of the DNC resigned over it shows it was more than just saying “nasty things about him in private”.
It should also be noted that their actions “caused significant harm to the Clinton campaign, and have been cited as a potential contributing factor to her loss in the general election”. It is not as inconsequential as you present it.
Convenient you skip over the undermine
Because it offered nothing concrete. It just says the emails “suggest” this, but doesn’t actually offer up anything of substance as to how it was done.
But the fact that the Chair of the DNC resigned over it shows it was more than just saying “nasty things about him in private”.
And yet, all you can point to is them saying nasty things in private.
It should also be noted that their actions “caused significant harm to the Clinton campaign, and have been cited as a potential contributing factor to her loss in the general election”. It is not as inconsequential as you present it.
I’m challenging the belief that Sanders had some chance in the 2016 primary against Clinton, and that there is good reason to believe it was stolen from him. I understand that the leaked emails were massively consequential.
From the 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak:
From the Kremlin hacking operation that passed both true and false info to Assange who said in a memo that they wanted Treason Trump to win which was documented in the Mueller report.
Why did Putin NOT leak RNC memos? Because he has been blackmailing the Republican Party ever since.
America is not a progressive country and if you are progressive you will be eternally disappointed with it.
Read more history if you disagree.
Can we please not continue to relitigate this until the end of time? We will be in line at the republican death camps and people will still be arguing that sanders won in 2016. It serves no purpose other than supporting the idiots who would rather a republican win than a democrat who isn’t Sanders.
When they start screaming stop the count or restart the count or whatever: Smile, nod, and ignore.
I don’t really think I’m going to convince that poster. I know, like Trump supporters, they are probably long gone and no amount of pointing out that they have no evidence is going to convince them that the DNC not screwed him, Sanders would have won. I just watch young people shifting towards the right, and it’s probably partially because of these dopes spreading this lie about the democrats, so I’m speaking to anyone who might come after them.
I doubt being grumpy about Sanders is going to shift folk to be right-wing. A lot of them probably HAVE become tankies but… the Sanders campaign was already very heavily buoyed by tankies online. Because it would have been shooting fish in a barrel for the candidate most known for “fun nicknames” to be up against a guy who used to be a meme about how c-span was boring and actively refused to even say “While I think the socioeconomic model had a lot of benefits, I oppose the fascist communist regimes of olde”.
But also? I know a few of the dumbest “Bernie or bust” morons you will ever see who focused that anger toward working with the Democrats to get considerably less shitty downballot candidates. And that is what the lesson should have been.
I doubt being grumpy about Sanders is going to shift folk to be right-wing.
It certainly turns them off of the Democrats. So maybe not a shift to the right, but certainly conditions where it increases the chance that the right is going to win. If Bernie bros had just accepted the outcome and then coalesced around Clinton, she likely would have won and we wouldn’t be in the same mess we’re in now.
Projection at its finest.
When you actually offer up something other than “they said nasty things about him!” then we can talk. So far tho, nothing.
Hey look, more liberals blatantly lying about how shit and corrupt their party is!
And you’ve provided. . .oh look! Nothing!
Providing nothing is better than providing blatant lies :3
And to prove these lies you’ve provided …oh look! Nothing!
Providing nothing is better than providing blatant lies :3
A blatant lie was all you provided.
It’d also be nice if they couldn’t just override the primary election results because it’s not a “real election”
That is some Trumpian level of bullshit. They cannot do that because it is against the Charter since the 1950’s. And yes legally the DNC could change their own charter but so can the RNC. Changing party charters to nullify primaries would spell certain doom for that party.
Yes, I’m still a bit bitter about how the DNC treated Bernie in the 2016 election
You and the Kremlin are bitter about how the Dem primary voters treated us Bernie supporters in the 2016 election. Got it.
I was curious about this. Since political parties run their own primaries, then they can decide to use whatever voting system they want. I suspect that RCV primaries would produce a candidate that is more competitive in the general election (though I don’t know enough about electoral math or demographics to be sure). I’m certain that RCV has a tendency to discourage scorched earth campaign tactics, so party candidates would be less prone to trying to destroy one another.
My city does ranked choice voting, and it’s great! I would love to see it at the state level.
That’s awesome! What city? What was the process for getting it on the ballot and what helped getting it passed?
San Francisco has had ranked choice voting since 2004. IIRC they called it “instant run-off voting” and it would save from having a run off election for the mayor and other elected officials.
Yup. Y’all had it for a while.
Ranked choice doesn’t really help here. Generally right-wing/conservative/wannabe-gilead voters aggregate around the republican candidate. Libertarians get stupid but there are very few of them and they start off stupid.
On the left? We have a LOT more infighting but the only viable candidates at the Presidential level (and most, but not all, states) are the Democrat.
So what does ranked choice get us? Okay, everyone picks their favorite third party first. They all get eliminated. So who voted for the Democrat and who voted for the republican?
It also becomes a question of what variation of ranked choice voting is used. Because, depending on the elimination model, you are just normalizing spoiler candidates.
And… there is the very good argument that we already have ranked choice voting in a sense. Primaries. it happens less when there is an incumbent but everyone picks their absolute favorite candidate who most closely represents them. The majority of that then becomes the candidate we vote for come November.
Nah, I think the real answer is to just get rid of the electorcal college at the presidential level and just do popular votes. We have the technology.
I’ll also add on that there is a lot of theory (and even demonstrable-ish evidence) that you tend to consolidate around two-ish candidates even in the models that are fairly amenable to third parties. There are a LOT of question marks because this isn’t the kind of study you can really isolate, but even the third party heavy models (most parliamentary governments, for example) tend to have two dominating parties with a third or fourth that are “just strong enough to get concessions”.
Of course it helps. Sure, the first election wouldn’t see much change, but RCV emboldens third parties to exist and would give them a viable path towards displacing the establishment. Right now there is NO path.
Reforming the electoral college is definitely needed as well, but a much longer runway since it likely requires a constitutional amendment. You can implement RCV without forgoing electoral college reform or abolition. No single change will fix it all, but RCV is beneficial in moving towards democracy and has a lot of momentum already.
I think after people learn and get used to RCV (and when older generations die), their voting styles will change. No more voting solely out of fear. It also requires the major (wealthy) candidates to align more to the smaller (less wealthy) candidates. There’s really no reason to be against it. In some states they offer both styles of ballots so you can just vote for one person if you’d like. The only downside is that it can be confusing to new people.
None of that addresses the points I made outside of a nebulous “wouldn’t it be great if all the boomers died” which… no arguments.
Again, it all depends on what criteria are used to handle the rankings. Because a LOT of models will inherently favor the “side” that can rally behind a single candidate. Which is what we see under a lot of parliamentary models.
I am ALL for election reform. But “it can’t hurt” is not a reason to enact a heavy change. Especially when… it CAN hurt and discriminate against different demographics.
As for “the only downside is that it can be confusing to new people”: You should HANG with my buddy CHAD. Still hurting from that debacle.
Wasn’t trying to address your points because they’re just speculation. We’ve never had RCV nationwide for federal elections so can’t say how it would affect the way people vote. I don’t think the 2 party ruling system goes away with RCV, but it’s a step towards making politics more equitable. There are only benefits to giving voters more options. It’s not that “it can’t hurt”. It’s that it will benefit voters.
How does RCV discriminate? Which demographics?
Any voting system is prone to errors and any change will have growing pains. Doesn’t mean you don’t move forward. People need a way to vote for who they want, not who they don’t want. RCV is one solution. Doesn’t impede on any others.
If we “can’t say how it would affect the way people vote” then what is the point? There are a lot of different voting systems and if you are going to put the effort in to cause a mass upheaval… you need to have a reason. Like I said, I very much favor just getting rid of the electoral college as a good solution because it is the same procedure we currently have but now it means EVERY vote matters at every level (rather than just at every level except POTUS…)
And, again, we can just look at the current election. Basically every republican is fine with trumpian politics and refuse to even acknowledge they would vote against the orange fuckstain when they are “condemning” his behavior. Whereas the left? We can’t stop shitting on Biden. That translates to third party spoilers. Which is kind of the underlying issue of why we see right wing fascism on the rise globally. Because it is a lot easier to rally behind “We all hate this demographic” rather than “Well, I want UBI” “No, I want health care” “Fuck you all, the biggest issue we have is foreign policy”.
Any voting system is prone to errors and any change will have growing pains. Doesn’t mean you don’t move forward. People need a way to vote for who they want, not who they don’t want. RCV is one solution. Doesn’t impede on any others.
Moving forward is something you do with thought. Rather than “Well, I’m bored. Let’s redo everything because it might be better”.
To assume that all of the progress people are making towards RCV is without thought is incredibly ignorant. Lots of resources you can research to understand the benefits, how it works, and case studies for where it’s working now.
https://fairvote.org/our-reforms/ranked-choice-voting-information/#the-impacts-of-rcv
https://fairvote.org/news-and-analysis/#blog
If you don’t support RCV for some reason, just say that. You have to criticize those who are working towards something that’s actually benefiting voters.
You can sit around and wait for electoral reform, but change happens in baby steps. You don’t just jump to a constitutional amendment if nobody can get behind something like RCV.
Yeah. This happens with basically every “political movement”. You have some people who actually have put the thought in. And then you have hordes of people who can’t even explain simple things like “how does this not just embolden spoilers” or how does this meaningfully solve the two party problem" (a problem which, again, is prevalent even in more praised election systems).
Let alone “Oh, the only problem is people might get a bit confused”
People just see “oh, it is different so it must be better” and ignore all other aspects of it. It is what led to the rise of libertarianism in the 90s and tankie dumbasses in the 10s.
We all know you only want far right neolibs to be president, you don’t have to try to be sly about your conservatism :3
I think ranked choice voting would give us RFK as president
Edit: that was assuming we had these same candidates only as ranked choice obviously we would have more candidates
Brain Worm '24
Honestly my knowledge of ranked choice voting is that it works better for reps other than the president, and that our basically one guy wins it all form for presidential elections feels like ranked choice would work less. I’m willing to be wrong. I’m not sure if I actually like systems where the majority party picks the head of state, but it does feel like ra ked choice voting makes it matter more there.
Yeah. Nobody wants to acknowledge it because they watched a youtube and define themselves by “ranked choice” (and most don’t even know the specifics of the criteria they are supporting…)
Ranked Choice makes a LOT of sense at the county and state level. Because that is where third party candidates already have good odds if they actually represent the will of the people.
At the presidential? And with electoral college nonsense? The amount of money required to run a campaign and the tendency for certain chuddy demographics to rally behind one shitstain mean that you only really have two viable parties and ranked choice, at best, is a noop. At worst it enables spoilers.
Which… is also why a lot of parliament based governments still tend to have two major parties. They just have more splitting but… we already do when you realize that AOC and Hakeem Jeffries are in the same party.
You gotta consider how many viable candidates aren’t throwing the hat in the ring because there is no chance for them to get even close thanks to the current system, plus they’d be labeled as spoilers.
It’s stunning that each party managed to find a candidate that could lose against the other.
Its not that stunning. In fact, its more common than you’d guess.
Only Ford could lose to Carter. Only Dukakis could lose to Bush. Only Hillary could lose to Trump. Hindsight 20/20. Foresight blind as a fucking bat.
Ford did himself in. Apparently in 1976, American’s didn’t like the fact that the President could commit crimes while in office and get off with a pardon from his former VP. Crimes he was never charged with or convicted of.
Today, a scandal is like a badge of “honor” and being a convicted criminal and morally bankrupt sleezeball is basically a requirement for the Presidency. At least it is if you’re a Republican.
But bats aren’t blind
If the election was today, Biden would lose. Imagine if Trump wasn’t the nominee for November, the GOP would win the presidency.
Edit: it’s just reality according to the current polling.
according to the current polling
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: the polls are likely skewed towards the GOP, and it’s thought that this is because of random text/calls, which boomers are more likely to respond to.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/17/politics/michael-cohen-poll-rigging/index.html
You’re correct. They did it back then. They absolutely are still doing it now.
B-B-Biden bad! You really got to get it in huh.
Is a non-genocidal candidate capable of beating the criminal traitor Trump too much to ask for?
If he would lose the election today, YES, Biden is bad. Where’s the disconnect?
There it is again.
The disconnect that exists is that people don’t see the good things he does. You know, green energy, chips act, unions, drug price controls, student debt relief, telling them to look at marijuana rescheduling, infrastructure building. It just goes on and on. You’re doing mental gymnastics to say B-B-Biden bad! Ciao.
r2o admitted that he only posts the negative stuff. It’s why he got banned from politics.
people don’t see the good things he does
This is the point being made. If the election were tomorrow, Biden would lose because Trump is beating Biden in key swing states.
That could be a point, but the person I was responding to is on the war path of trying to make/change the point of “B B BIden bad”.
I never said Biden is bad. He’s doing the bare minimum. Expect more from our politicians.
Lol you all caps shouted “YES” agreeing to what I said and literally said “Biden is bad”.
Bare minimum huh? Back to your mental gymnastics. Biden’s doing fucking great.
You want more? He doesn’t even have control of the house of representatives. If you want more give him and Dems consistent and resounding victories.
I think this is where I inform you that Dems have had control of all three (house, Senate, and presidency) for a whooping 4 years of the last 24 years. If you include Bill Clinton, then it’s 6 of the last 32 years. You want more progress? Give Dems consistent and resounding victories. Not a measly half term every second president.
Good luck.
Lol you all caps shouted “YES” agreeing to what I said and literally said “Biden is bad”.
My apologies, I post anything critical of Biden and the centrist rage comes out of the woodwork to defend him. I got my comments mixed up.
What should Biden do differently to run away with the change of winning re-election?
I would say that the bare minimum would actually include not actively supporting a genocide, but maybe I’m just out of touch.
Some genocide is actually fine. /s
Expanding the oil industry and shutting down strikes then giving them a pittance isn’t good. Liberals keep lying ig, maybe if you lie hard enough biden will stop being a piece of shit
/s nothing and no one will stop him from being a piece of shit, telling blatant lies isn’t gonna get people to like him
Whether we like it or not, gas prices play an outsized role. Have to do that while we get some rail infrastructure up, gas milage up, EVs up and the green energy to go with that. And guess who wants to kill all that?
On unions: https://youtu.be/EM6jMtG_MB8
And way to ignore all the other points.
If you think polling relates to reality then look into polling and how it doesn’t.
“Polls have “called” elections correctly 78 percent of the time” according to that article. Just because they are more accurate than in another time frame does not mean they are accurate overall. This is an incredibly poor rate in the larger picture. Independent groups are notoriously hard to poll and they are the ones that decide elections. If it’s a landslide then of course the poll will be correct. Completely unreliable in close elections. However they make excellent time filters for news networks.
“Polls have “called” elections correctly 78 percent of the time” according to that article. Just
Maybe you should just read their argument as to why this is a garbage metric. Especially if you are arguing they don’t even “relate to reality.”
If always predicting who will win is the requirement for polls, the problem isn’t the polling itself, but your understanding of what a poll means and how statistics work.
Polls only predict well in places where you don’t need polls… hence their 78% success rate. What is their rate in closer elections? Likely right at 50%…useless.
The article talks about this and why it’s a bad metric. If you’re going to ignore their descriptive argument, you’ll just ignore my less than descriptive argument here.
But rest assured that at least part of the problem here is that you don’t understand statistics and probability.
This is a thread where someone made the statement “Trump would win if the election was today.” based on polls. You said yourself, that’s not what polls are for. Take it up with the person who is misusing the poll to make definitive statements like that rather than the person saying you can’t trust the polls for that.
Both that poster and this one can be wrong.
The difference is that the other poster is just conflating will with favored and it’s kind of pedantic to argue with that.
This poster is claiming that they are no relationship with reality, which is just blatantly wrong.
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You really think Biden would win the election if it was held today? Have you not been paying attention at the work he still needs to do to win?
You’re not allowed to suggest Biden might lose. That’s the same as voting for Trump.
The existence of Project 2025 makes all of the “which candidate is better?” discussion completely irrelevant. If you support the people that support Project 2025 then you’re a bootlicker who wants to end popular representation in the government and replace it with authoritarianism. If you are vocally against the people who oppose Project 2025 then you are collaborating with the enemy.
Any other option is better.
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Meanwhile Project 2025 on the Democrat side is the codename for the medical advances being pursued to keep Biden functioning through to 2025.
(I kid of course, you’re absolutely right, as depressing as that is)
You kid, but we all know this walking corpse is on the best amphetamines our top medical scientists can whip up in the lab.
The existence of Project 2025
Republicans have a shitty pre-election plan in the run up to every election. This isn’t any different than every other election cycle, from the perspective of “Bad Republicans promise to do bad things”.
Any other option is better.
The illusion of electoral choice is choking the life out of any actual democracy in this country. Time and time again, we’re told which party is The Worst and that Anyone Else Would Be Better. That’s how Trump won in 2016 ffs. Republicans doomed themselves to a decade of this manic fascist bumblefuckery by whipping themselves into an “Anyone but Hillary!” feeding frenzy.
If you are vocally against the people who oppose Project 2025 then you are collaborating with the enemy.
You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorists!
Republicans have a shitty pre-election plan in the run up to every election.
This understatement is right up there with the 'Tis but a scratch scene from Monty Python
The illusion of electoral choice is choking the life out of any actual democracy in this country.
Ok so what’s your plan to fix it? Because I have one: vote for people that want to improve the electoral system and against those that want to prevent it from improving. As much as Democrats are “part of the problem”, they’ve also been open to runoff voting, switching to a national popular vote, easier voting mechanisms, and other changes that would allow for third parties and better representation. Republicans, meanwhile, have been trying to prevent those changes, as they’ve done in 5 states now where they banned ranked choice voting.
To be fair though, Trump is more open to changing the electoral process. The only problem is, he wants to get rid of voting entirely and remove any option we have to prevent rule by wealthy oligarchs like himself.
Because I have one: vote for people
Brilliant
Good luck.
I mean yes, the people who are pushing 2025 are literally using threats, violence, and the threat of violence (legal and extra-legal), so you are correct.
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Not wanting biden to commit genocide isn’t collaborating with the enemy, that’s what you’re doing by shutting down discussion of that. Republicans want more Palestinians dead, and you’re helping to give them what they want. What’s so cool about genocide that you think people should shut up and just take it? What a cool smart moral guy you are, calling people bootlickers if they don’t quietly accept genocide
Your comment would carry a whole lot more weight if we didn’t have this shitty FPTP system…but we do.
In this system, it’s a vote for a shitty Democrat or a vote for authoritarianism.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pressure biden to not support genocide ffs. How are you all so on board for sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending thousands of civilians aren’t being slaughtered by weapons provided by our president? I’ll probably still vote for him, but you can go fuck yourself if you’re telling me I should stay silent about ethnic cleansing
Please quote where anyone in this conversation said not to pressure Biden about Gaza. The comment you replied to is talking about Project 2025.
Nobody is saying we should ignore it. You invented that strawman and you’re perpetuating it with this comment.
Look at you, inventing imaginary positions that imaginary people in this thread hold so you can get mad at the imaginary people.
You know what op was saying, them not specifically mentioning Israeli genocide doesn’t change that it’s clearly a response to that, telling people to shut up and stop complaining. Pretending to be sly about it doesn’t make it any less reprehensible
Your argument would be completely sound, if not for the fact that anyone who gives a shit about preventing genocide is trying to help Biden win the election. You, on the other hand, want to complain about genocide and use the awfulness of the genocide as an excuse to go ahead and make the genocide even worse. If you get Trump elected, he’s going to go after the West Bank too.
Very cool and convenient how you ignore me saying we should vote for biden bc otherwise it doesn’t fit your narrative of apathetic leftists not voting to own the libs. If you have nothing to say in good faith then fuck off, genocidal cunts like you are a waste of time to talk to
What’s your tone going to be if talk like this is what gets tRump the win and speeds up the genocide? Since he’s the one calling for it and will do nothing to prevent it.
“What if opposing genocide gets trump elected” says a lot more about you and other liberals than it does about me
Why don’t you answer the question then comrade?
Your comment says I all I need to know about you. Answer this one too, you a bot or a troll?
Still waiting for your answer. I’ll go out on a limb and guess you won’t answer, you’ll come back with some whataboutism or some other insult further proving you’re just a troll.
Biden isn’t “committing genocide” and saying he is amounts to simple propaganda.
The conservatives want to take aid away from Ukraine to deliver it to Israel. If Trump wins, far more weapons will be going to Israel than they are now. Repeating propaganda like this is not helpful for the Palestinian people.
Lastly, Israel is an important ally from a strategic perspective. Not only are they our closest ally in the Middle East, but they have a number of important resources like intel semiconductor facilities. Cutting ties with Israel would be bad for America, and the role of the US government is to put America first. It’s more complex than simply supporting one side or the other and Biden is attempting to balance aid for Palestine with preserving our relationship with Israel. That’s exactly what a good president should be doing.
Biden is complicit in genocide, so much so that he should be tried in court with the rest of the people in the Israeli state. You can’t get much more complicit than sending weapons and aid to an apartheid state that is carrying out a genocide, without which they would not be able to carry out said genocide as effectively. A good president would divest and sanction Israel, not write a blank check for their crimes against humanity.
The claims of genocide are colored by propaganda and misinformation. Academic researchers are split on the issue, at best. The fact of the matter is that Israel could swiftly end all life in Gaza through overwhelming military force if that was their goal, and this has not happened.
I’d agree that Israel’s actions in Gaza are unethical but there is a stark difference between acting without regard for civilian casualties and outright ethnic cleansing. The evidence doesn’t seem to support the latter.
A good president would divest and sanction Israel
A good president would prioritize what’s best for America, which means preserving the favorable relationship America has with Israel. Meanwhile, a good president would provide humanitarian aid for Palestine and help negotiate for peace.
That’s exactly what Biden is doing and refusing to vote for him harms almost every party involved, including Palestine. Really, the only groups who would benefit are the far right and Russia… makes you wonder where comments like this come from, doesn’t it?
The claims aren’t colored by propaganda and misinformation… You can literally read the genocidal intent of Israeli government members and Knesset members. Some of them tweet it and say it out loud for the world to witness.
Just because they’re capable of doing genocide “better” doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it. That’s not an argument to say the thing we’re literally watching them do isn’t happening.
I think that your priorities are fucked if you care more about preserving this country’s relationship with an apartheid state than stopping a genocide by said apartheid state.
Also, quit implying that my comments are right wing or Russian just because they have opinions that don’t align with yours. That’s such a tired trope. I could imply the same of you, but I’m choosing to engage in good faith.
The claims aren’t colored by propaganda and misinformation
They sure are. A great example would be the videos making the rounds recently about the Israeli drones supposedly making “crying baby noises” to lure people out. This is a classic propaganda technique, the videos are literally just a black screen with some background sound, the Israeli government could kill those people far more easily without such tactics, and anyone who has spent time around drones regularly knows it’s extremely implausible at best.
It’s a blatantly obvious piece of propaganda that was widely accepted because people can’t pause for five seconds to apply a bit of critical thinking to their conclusions.
Just because they’re capable of doing genocide “better” doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it.
It means exactly this. “Genocide” implies a certain intent and this is a very strong argument of the absence of the requisite intent.
Also, quit implying that my comments are right wing or Russian just because they have opinions that don’t align with yours. That’s such a tired trope. I could imply the same of you, but I’m choosing to engage in good faith.
Well maybe you shouldn’t be pushing an agenda that benefits the Russians and far-right at the expense of the Palestinian people?
Honestly, you’re either a badly intentioned troll, lacking in some basic critical thinking skill, or simply willing to see far more Palestinians die for your ideals while you sit back in safety and watch it happen.
I’m done responding to you if you’re going to keep insulting me. Have fun continuing to deny genocide.
Edit: I am going to leave this here though for anyone who happens to come across these replies. This outlines some of the genocidal intent evidence from Israeli officials and soldiers. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724
And here’s a summary of the conclusions of a recent UN report regarding war crimes committed by both Israel and Hamas. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/06/1150946
Biden doesn’t want to do anything about gaza, but Trump wants to bomb the west bank too. That means I support less genocide and you support not doing anything to prevent more genocide. That makes you a racist traitor.
I support voting for biden (barely) and I support telling him to stop supporting genocide. All you wanna do is pretend there is no genocide. That makes you a genocidal reactionary, and whatever I am it’s a fuck of a lot better than that :3
Wow, look at you lying about what I said while it’s still clearly visible on the screen.
So you do oppose genocide? I thought you wanted people to shut up about it until after the election? If genocide is so bad you should try protesting it instead of telling people to be quiet about it
I am protesting it. I attended a rally last week, went to a meeting to schedule future actions yesterday, and have generally been very proactive about creating pressure on organisations to divest from Israel. I’ve been putting time and energy into actual solutions. You know what’s not an actual solution? Trying to make Trump lose by a narrower margin. There are no solutions in electoral politics, there is only choosing the lesser evil. Then you go out on the streets and you fight the lesser evil, and thank your lucky stars you don’t have to fight the greater evil.
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I think Trump retiring and the Republicans replacing him with a charismatic, young, intelligent christofascist would be devastating for the Democrats (and humanity) right now and I don’t know why they don’t do it.
For that matter I don’t see why Democrats don’t replace Biden with a charismatic, young, intelligent social democrat which would be equally devastating for republicans. So who knows with these people.
This is the current state of US politics - it’s more about who you’re against than who you’re for, and I firmly believe this is the reason why no scandals seem to matter anymore.
On the conservative side, they get a steady stream of content telling them how horrible Biden and the Democrats are, so anyone with a heartbeat and an ® next to their name is fine. It’s probably how Trump of all people became the party leader.
Strategic voting is a direct result of first past the post voting; effectively any system that uses FPTP will result in a two party system where your vote gets used against the other person not for your choice.
I’ll continue to shill for ranked choice voting whenever I see any opportunity.
We desperately need it if we want reasonable candidates again.
I’m against all these assholes taking bribes from whoever they can and above all else ignoring the needs of their constituents. Recall them all!
On the progressive side, they get a steady stream of content telling them how horrible Trump and the Republicans are, so anyone with a heartbeat and an D next to their name is fine. It’s probably how Biden of all people became the party leader.
Sure, if you ignore all the progressives who hate Biden and protest his handling of Palestine constantly, you can pretend that both sides are lockstep behind dear leader.
Read through the comments here. People who don’t act like Blue MAGA sycophants are treated like heretics.
No, I see actual leftists criticise Biden all the time and get upvoted and praised. It’s only the marxist-liberals who get in trouble for criticising Biden, and it’s because they do it in the most counterproductive liberal way possible.
Time will tell if those people will still vote for Biden or if their hatred will be reflected in how they vote.
But you’re still going to vote for him right?
Nope, you’ll never catch a marxist-liberalist actually doing anything productive. They believe in order to be a good leftist you have to do nothing. Because if you do something, and it’s not perfect, you’re a bad person.
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You’ve clearly never asked a progressive how they feel about the Democrat party.
the Democrat party.
This is how an archconservative refers to the Democratic Party
Its “Democratic Party”.
We dont call the opponents “Republic Party”
Republicans started saying this to disassociate the party from the word “democracy”
And also because it ends with “rat” which has negative connotations
Actions speak louder than words. Who do these progressives keep voting for?
The only non-fascists who have a chance at winning. Progressives didn’t pick our first past the post election formula.
My comment and this thread has nothing to do with rightly or wrongly voting for anyone. Nor does it have anything to do with how anyone should justify their vote.
I only reinforced the claim that anyone with a “D” next to their name is “fine enough” for progressives to vote for. A claim that you initially disagreed with, but are now proving to be true.
I am unsure as to why a progressive would ever vote Republican. Progressives cannot politically exist on their own in this two-party system. They have to adopt one party or the other. Since the Republican party is completely and absolutely opposed to anything a progressive would believe in, they adopted the one party that has a minor shot at enacting policies they adhere to. There is no doubt they would likely vote D all the way down the ballot in every election. It’s the only opportunity at policy progression they have. It has been this way for a while so this claim isn’t some new prediction or revelation.
I only reinforced the claim that anyone with a “D” next to their name is “fine enough” for progressives to vote for.
Maybe listen to Bernie when he said that any Dem is “200x” better than any Republican candidate for president. I have never known Bernie to be wrong about anything.
If Biden was full of bravado around breaking the government so we wouldn’t have more elections like Trump I wouldn’t vote for him either. It’s not about the D or the R. It’s about the choice that most likely to lead to a peaceful transfer of power in the next election. There are no good options but I choose the one that’s going to allow future, hopefully better, choices.
One of the biggest factors that makes Republicans fascish is the way they use any power they’re given to entrench their positions, something democrats also do a little, but much less than Republicans. Voting for a party you’re less than happy with to keep the much worse party from permanent power is a much more practical and thought-out position than “blue no matter who” would have you believe. It’s disingenuous to liken that to the largely false fear-mongering the right wing media bubble does to convince their voters that the conservative Democrat Joe Biden wants to turn America communist.
Exactly. I was just using the conservative side as my example because the post topic was already covering the progressive side.
boTh SIdes aRe The sAMe!!!
boTh SIdes aRe The sAMe!!!
Yep. The GOP is waging a War on Democracy and Dems have been using the wrong brand of mustard.
It’s probably how Biden of all people became the party leader.
That and getting the most primary votes.
“People voting for watching paint dry instead of poking sticks in their eyes appear to be mostly motivated by avoiding sticks…in their eyes.”
That was also true in 2020. And in 2016 for Hillary.
I have never whole heartedly supported the Democratic candidate (because I’m far more left than any of them have ever been), but I’ve always voted for them, because they’re far better than the other option. This time they’re just so far better than the other option, not because they are any better, but because the other option is so astoundingly worse. So, I guess, welcome to the club.
But I will say, Biden has been more progressive than any other candidate in my lifetime. Again, that’s not saying much, but hey, it’s better than nothing. He’s just killing himself by supporting Israel.
This is sanest take I’ve seen on the matter. Good to see nuance is not dead!
But I will say, Biden has been more progressive than any other candidate in my lifetime.
I agree and I can remember every president since Nixon. Not one single president in the past 50 years has been better than Biden.
I supported them wholeheartedly for like a day when I moved from libertarianish something in my teens and early twenties to slightly progressive. I feel exactly the same.
Isn’t this the general sad state of democracy? Specially in America and it’s 2 party system?
Rarely people get to vote for whom they want, they vote against the one they dislike/fear the most
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“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see…"
“You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?”
“No,” said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, “nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people.”
“Odd,” said Arthur, “I thought you said it was a democracy.”
“I did,” said Ford. “It is.”
“So,” said Arthur, hoping he wasn’t sounding ridiculously obtuse, “why don’t people get rid of the lizards?”
“It honestly doesn’t occur to them,” said Ford. “They’ve all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they’ve voted in more or less approximates to the government they want.”
“You mean they actually vote for the lizards?”
“Oh yes,” said Ford with a shrug, “of course.”
“But,” said Arthur, going for the big one again, “why?”
“Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard,” said Ford, “the wrong lizard might get in.”
Biden has not been as bad as I expected him to be, but he is out of touch with the average American. Politicians need mandatory retirements. We need someone under the age of 65. But I’ll take him over the convicted felon.
I mean no shit.
In other news, water is wet.
No shit. That’s been his whole platform from the beginning.
