Let me explain the question:
If fox news and religious propaganda are exactly that, propaganda, then they are victims.
If, however, every person is free to listen to what they want and then rant against liberals, migrants, Muslims, Arabs, trans, gays, atheists, you name it, then they are just gullible.
I’d have more patience for a victim than a gullible person.
Everybody is free to believe what they want to believe. What I don’t get is why they have to stir things up and why they believe they are the only ones getting it and everyone else is dumb, woke, a communist or is going to hell. Why can’t they keep their opinions to themselves?
I don’t think it’s an “or” situation. They are both.
This is the answer.
In many ways people are the product of their surroundings. Even if these people are “just gullible”, that’s because they don’t know any better, which makes them victims also.
Maybe I’m missing some nuance of the word but if they believe the stuff because they are gullible… isn’t that what makes them the victim?
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When you stop empathizing with people, you’ve taken a step toward dehumanizing them. You aren’t under any obligation to empathize, and goodness knows it is tiring. However, it is important to realize that once you stop empathizing, you are more likely to accept extreme solutions in a subconscious attempt to resolve your frustration.
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Depending on your definitions (empathy, sympathy, and compassion are often confusingly defined and contradictory between dictionaries), you ARE empathizing by realizing they are mental children. You’re just not sympathizing and therefore deciding no longer to act with compassion, which makes plenty of sense to me.
IMHO it’s good to empathize with the right (understand your attacker), but it’s also important have to understand that whatever the underlying reasons, these people, when activated into an idiot army they become a dangerous group.
The definitions that make the most sense to me is
Empathy - understanding the perspective of another, where there desires and fears come from. It takes intelligence to not just project one’s own personality on everyone else and understand that they are different.
Sympathy - Feeling in sync with another (like when you speak of sympathetic guitar strings causing each other to vibrate). Like you see the bombing in Gaza and not just understand that they don’t want to be bombed (empathy), but imagining the pain of losing your child.
Compassion - The positive treatment of another due to having sympathy for them
I think you have the words the other way around
You have simultaneously also described why you can’t easily unite a left-leaning base. My issue is obviously the most important (and so is everyone else’s to them) at every moment. Also if you are a rep you are honor bound to resign and recuse and be a perfect parent of the children in the other camp.
Yes, we can walk and chew gum, but you can’t chase every car in the lot at the same time and you can’t shoot yourself in the leg out of honor when the competition is going to shoot your other leg for spite.
Honestly, I think there is a real problem with infantilisation - and (Warning: unpopular opinion) a large part of this is the marvel films and manga trend. Those always over simplify every problem to a short, violent solution.
Those always over simplify every problem to a short, violent solution.
Yeah, entertainment totally didn’t do this before Marvel and manga. 🤨
Seriously, blaming entertainment (actual entertainment, not “news” that weasels in court calling itself entertainment) has been a thing since the stone ages. It wasn’t true about rock and roll, it wasn’t true about dime novels, it’s not true now about superhero stuff.
Are we really that sure that tv did not actually “rot people’s brains” to varying degrees? I would be interested in a more rigorous study of this before we dismiss all entertainment influences as simple culture war bullshit due to the genuinely overwhelming overuse of culture war arguments.
I’ve looked into this before for arguments with my mother trying to get her to stop saying there’s a gay agenda. Her argument was because I enjoy the videogames and sci-fi I wasn’t smart enough to understand the truth. The science has actually been done (though I’m sure more still needs to be done).
Research by a scientist named Schwartz in 2016 showed that those predisposed to anti-social behaviour are also naturally pre-disposed to watch more TV. When accounting for genetic traits, previous research into negative affects of TV didn’t hold up amongst children and young adults (mentally, physically yes, but we already knew sedentary lifestyle has negative impacts).
A (I Believe Johns Hopkins but I’m going from memory) 20 year data evaluation released in 2021 showed that excessive TV can contribute to cognitive decline over time (they measured a 0.5% reduction amongst the adults they tested). The main scientist I remember saying they didn’t account for type of media and did think educational content like documentaries would have a smaller impact though he couldn’t guess by how much. His worry wasn’t about the average adult making decisions but rather preserving as much mental capacity long term so as to help reduce impacts of dementia.
A 2023 UK study backed up the 2021 and 2016 study. Excess causes increased health risks and a long term small measurable cognitive decline.
Everything I’ve seen points to, for the most part, the amount being the problem as with everything. Moderation is key and living a diverse life that stimulates you mentally overall is important. Manga or Marvel movies when you want to relax is not going to rot your brain. Only consuming them will, same as with any type of media or genre.
Thank you for writing that out.
The gullible often become victims. I don’t understand the distinction you’re making. Between personal failing and societal failing? They feed into each other. Both warrant correction.
It happens with liberals, too. Having said that, people really do need to go outside, get away from the 24/7 media feed, talk to actual people, and apply some critical thinking on their own. None of us is the main character.
I’m the main character, obviously, why else would the sun revolve around the earth? Purely to honor me the main character, reincarnated in this dying world to save it from the demon lord known as See Oh Too, and its generals Shell, BP, and Chevron. /S
save it from the demon lord known as See Oh Too, and its generals Shell, BP, and Chevron.
HOORAY!
/S
…oh :(
I’d put them on the same level of victimhood as followers of people like Charles Manson. They probably wouldn’t have done what they did without his influence but they’re still culpable for the damage they’ve caused.
People should grow up and take responsibility for their lives.
That’s the main thing.
A grown up, responsible person can have opinions, and can change their opinions.
A grown up, responsible person can spend their day as they want, and can also understand that it is probably unhealthy to watch news a whole day long.
A grown up, responsible person can utter a rant when it feels neccessary, and can also apologize afterwards if someone got hurt from it.
People should grow up and take responsibility for their lives.
We SHOULD all get free unicorns too.
But if you actually want to fix the problem, as opposed to just should’ing it, that requires that we see these people as victims. And this means we don’t blame the victim, we help them with their situation.
The wonderful part about the train of thought that you’ve started, is that eventually you realize that people not only need to take responsibility for their own lives, but also need to take responsibility for the society they impose on other people’s lives. And if we’re unhappy with that society, we have to actively do something about it. That is our responsibility. Just as much as it’s our responsibility to fix ourselves.
People should grow up and take responsibility for their lives.
This is something on I don’t agree at all with liberals. When people are manipulated by cult-like technique (or even (social) media optimized to give their brain a fix of dopamine) it’s not about their individual responsiblity but the responsiblity of the assholes manipulating them.
This is something on I don’t agree at all with liberals.
Is it only liberals in your country who think so?
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No - a shorter sentence than the man himself, though.
Should. But its not like we can force them to grow up and become responsible.
But its not like we can force them to grow up
But should you?
Are you responsible for their life?
No. But I am responsible for my own and my friends and family’s safety.
So what is right, is it to let these be free to indoctrinate themselves into hating me and my fellow humans and spreading harmful beliefs until theres no room for our kind? Or is it to police what they are allowed to consume and become the fascist I didnt want these gullible fools to become? Also if we did, how long until someone turned it around on us: Declared themselves the less gullible ones and worthy of policing what we should watch?
Assuming most humans means well and want good, we’d always outnumber and outvote those who are fool enough to believe in the hate. But seeing politicians who demonstrately and openly want the worst towards certain people, somehow manage to get voted into leadership of one of the most influental countries in the world… It has shaken my belief in that tolerance will win out in a democracy.
Or are they bigots looking for confirmation bias?
I think the “people are free to believe what they want to believe” is a mistake. This is the very statement that relativitises opinions and belief systems with facts and creates the illusion that they are all equal.
Look at the “facts don’t care about feelings” crowd that believe wholeheartedly that statements pandering to their feelings are facts and disregard any actual facts as fake news. I don’t think it’s because they decided one day to pick and choose what is a fact and what is not, but they actually can’t tell that there is a difference in opinions, beliefs and facts in the first place.
People need to accept that sometimes the truth is painful, that it contradicts what you want it to be, and worst of all - that you may have been wrong.
Edit: that said, I think people are free to believe whatever they want to believe when it comes to unprovable existential esoterica like personal values, afterlife, religion, whatever. As long they accept it is a personal belief and not an universal truth.
Being abnormally gullible can be a symptom of some types of mental health issues. Extremely gullible people, especially, deserve compassion.
Does their gullibility somehow diminish their victimhood? Gullible doesn’t mean they’re malicious, it just means they’re easily misled. If anything, if they’re “just gullible” we should be even less hostile towards them, and more towards the propaganda machine (because it is) that’s feeding them their misinformation.
“willing victimhood” is certainly a thing.
Tldr “In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence”
Blame is not a finite resource. Just because 2 people are involved doesn’t mean they’re both 50% to blame — they can both be 100% at fault.
So to answer your question, the person is responsible for their onerous views. They chose to watch that trash and believe it. We can have compassion for them without absolving them of blame. At the same time, they are a victim of the people lying to them. So it’s fine to blame the person consuming the bullshit and the person producing the bullshit, and the fact that there are 2 people to blame doesn’t make either of them any less to blame.
They’re absolutely NOT a victim. A victim is an unwilling participant in an act committed against them.
Stupidity isn’t not a viable excuse to be a victim.
It absolutely is. Consider elderly people getting scammed. You really want to defend the fact that they aren’t victims?
