Your views are at odds with reality.

And surely you are able to point out what exactly am I wrong about? :)

I’m sorry that your current reality is an aggression into your homeland and that they’re calling on you against your will. That sure sucks.

It sure does :(

But even if goes against your wishes, peace doesn’t exist there (presumably you’re talking from the Ukraine) and liberties are the first thing to go when shit gets real

I am from Ukraine, but thankfully I am not in Ukraine, as I managed to escape it before the war started when it was still possible.
Peace was always possible, but Zelensky and his regime does not want it, because war is what allows him to stay in power and steal millions/billions of dollars.

No one pretended during the world war that they were a free and fair democracy

Zelensky does pretend that Ukraine is free and fair democracy though, and is lying to everyone’s faces that Ukraine is a democratic country that “doesn’t chase people with sticks to the frontlines”. He is a pathological liar, and unfortunately many people believe him.

Good luck with the ruskies, hope they die 2 per 1 shot at your country’s hands for what they’re doing.

The problem is not with “ruskies”, the problem is with Zelensky. Just 1 shot would be enough, and it can’t come soon enough. We can deal with Russia later.

When the left punishes you

When the left punishes you (without them even admitting or realizing it), your country is getting turned into a mass prison and your family, your friends, and you are then slaughtered in a war, all to the applause of the left, praising your dictatorial government for being heroes.
And then, when you try to show people what’s happening in your own country, the atrocities your own government is committing upon you, the left tries to silence you until you get slaughtered, or until it becomes irrelevant and everybody moves on and forgets about it.
That’s how the left punishes you.

At least with a loss of opportunities, you still have your life and other guaranteed freedoms to find a different opportunity.

Please tell me, and every other Ukrainian, how our life and “other guaranteed freedoms” is going? How we are able to leave the country if we want to, how we are not kidnapped from the streets (and soon will be from our homes) and sent to die? Please tell me more about it.

it is conservative/ right wing parties pushing for heavier surveillance of citizens.

My experience is totally different, although of course I don’t know the situation in whatever country you’re from.
Arguably, the main reason for surveillance (being able to read your communication) is to be able to censor you (prevent you from posting/saying things somebody else doesn’t like) or even punish you for something you say.
And I don’t see how can anyone argue that it is not the left that wants to censor everything and punish people for things they say :)

If somebody wants to actually try arguing it, please answer the following question (in parentheses I’ll leave the suggested answer 😉, but let me know if yours are different)

• Why is almost every free speech site is a right-wing site, and not a left-wing one? (because they are extremist, and we need to censor and jail them! but it is okay, because they are the bad ones and we are the good ones.)
• Is it okay to criticize alphabet people (and call them alphabet people ig 🙃), post statistics of violent crimes by race, and generally speak bad about minorities? (nooo, you can’t do that, we should protect minorities no matter what the reality is, you should be censored and jailed!)
• Is it okay to tell people what is actually happening in Ukraine and what atrocities Zelensky’s regime is committing? (nooo, you can’t do that, you’re a fascist and/or russian bot/propagandist, it’s all a lie even if you provide us with credible/primary sources, we should censor you as soon as possible for propaganda or misinformation or something and definitely jail you!)

Not like that!
Others (preferably Ukrainians, we don’t consider them humans anyway, right?) should go and destroy Russia instead of me, I should be lying comfortably on my bed commenting how we should destroy Russia!
/s

I don’t use it either, but wikipedia (and common knowledge) suggests they do like censoring everything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Facebook

this is implemented in a way that forces all existing messaging services to implement this or shut down

This is not possible. Anybody can host a messaging service as a tor onion, and there is nothing they can do about it :)

The only way they can make it work is to basically only allow connections to whitelisted services (not even GFW does that).

Oh no, they don’t censor every opinion I don’t like, don’t remove every post that does not align with my worldviews as disinformation, and don’t forbid people to say bad words towards me while allowing me to do same towards them, what a horrible place!

Wow, my comment got removed because it is “misinformation / propaganda”.
You surely guys are open to a civil discussion based on facts :)

Removed by mod

What?

crimes against Ukrainians

Surely this also applies to current USA administration turning Ukraine into prison that is almost impossible to escape and where men are treated worse then dogs?

Ah, so justification is - they do something bad, so we will do something bad as well (not towards them tho).
Got it

WDYM?

You cannot tell the difference between Russia and the Free World? What is wrong with you man?

Is it Russia that kidnaps Ukrainians on the streets and sends them to die? The last time I checked it was Zelensky’s regime.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-intelligence-believes-putin-probably-didn-t-order-his-rival-navalny-s-killing-report-claims/ar-AA1nLp5U

There’s nothing I can say to arguing that “killing Ukrainians is okay because they are killed ‘for the greater good of stopping a miniHitler’” as well. I don’t find it morally correct to kill people that done nothing wrong.

And also,

“31,000 killed, 7,000–8,000 missing”

Is lower than even Ukrainian propaganda is saying, it’s twice that number for the first year of war (US estimate), so about 4 times that number as of now, by US estimate.

Doesn’t mind joining EU?

Why are you asking me? It’s a publicly available info, not my opinion.

Oh, because I assume 2014 was a coup and not people being mad at the president refusing to sign a trade agreement with the EU and choosing closer ties to russia despite promises right?

From wikipedia:
A sudden appropriation of leadership or power; a takeover.

Seems to suit that definition.

Like those negotiations where russia promised not to attack Ukraine if they gave up their nukes, yeah.

Yeah, they did that. Now, would you please be so kind to tell me about a country that never broke any internation laws, agreements, etc.? Pro tip: you can’t.
Does it mean that nobody should negotiate with each anymore because we all did bad things in the past, and we should instead just kill each other?

And I find it hilarious that you’re rooting for the perpetrators of the Bucha massacre. I guess none of your friends were there so that was fine. Well, if that’s what your logic dictates, very well. Good luck with that.

Yes, thankfully none of my friends were there.
But this is again an unfair comparison!
According to the wikipedia - a few hundred people were murdered there. Let’s add to that a few thousand more civilians that were killed by Russian forces. Let’s say it is a ten thousand, give or take. This is a horrible number. Yet the number of people killed/wounded by Zelensky’s regime is an order of fucking magnitude greater than that! Estimated to be in hundreds of thousands!
If you were given an option where you could die with 1% chance or with 10% chance, which option would you choose? I think for most people the answer is clearly the former. My logic indeed dictates that, and I would choose it every time. Does your logic say otherwise?
So you’re damn right I’m rooting for the “perpetrators of the Bucha massacre” instead of “perpetrators of mass genocide of Ukrainians”. If there was a good side to root for, I would. But there isn’t. So I support the side that I consider the lesser evil, the side which gives Ukrainians a hope of survival.

But yeah, either you’re a very naïve ukranian or more likely what I’ve been saying from the start.

Could you please explain to me, how does “rooting for” the side that increases the chance of survival for my family and all the other Ukrainians mean that I am naïve?
Or if you think what you’ve “been saying from the start” (basically that Mr. Putin pays me to write comments on lemmy), why do you think so? Why isn’t it logical for a Ukrainian to hope that Russia will win? I argumented my position, that it’s as simple as increasing the chance of survival for oneself and their family. Isn’t that the most precious thing one has?

All the people in russian occupied territories weren’t given a choice. russia occupied and that’s that. Regardless of people’s wills.

That’s a fair argument.
But comparing that (simply living under a different government, which is actually extremely similar to the old one) with killing people is not fair.

So if the people are pro russia sure, those people won’t mind. But if they’re pro Ukraine? What happens to those people?

I don’t know, what happens?
They have a choice to do as they please - they can sell their real estate (if they have any, if they don’t then it is even less of a problem) and move to unoccupied Ukraine territories (although it would be a very weird choice, because there they would be trapped, and wouldn’t be able to go back, so this is a one way trip…), or they can continue living on the occupied territories like many have done.

What happens to those people? And what happens in a few years when russian forces will have regrouped and they’ll have enough ammo and weapons to attack again? Because history shows they’ll attack again…every few years they take more land. Should everyone from Ukraine just move somewhere else and leave the land for russia to avoid bloodshed? Then maybe Poland and Moldova should do the same, because russia will want that land too. Maybe we should all just become the russian federation

This is a speculation of what will happen, and unfortunately I’ve lost my crystal ball so it’s not possible for me to confirm whether you are right or wrong.
As for regrouping of the forces… I believe that neither of us is a military expert (let me know if I am wrong), so in my opinion it is Ukraine that needs regrouping (even the western media seems to be predicting their fall now, but of course I can be wrong there), in your opinion it might be the other way around, it’s hard to debate on that.

And of course all of this is on Zelensky because he’s the one that attacked. It’s all because of him.

Please point me to the message where I said that?
The causes for the war is a whole another dimension to discuss, that would include a “war” against Russian language in Ukraine (when it is the language spoken by half of the population, give or take, and that was considered being set as second official language), the glorification of Bandera (you can look up his deeds during WW2, Poles love that guy), and lots of other stuff, but as I said it’s a different topic to discuss.
Russia indeed is the one that attacked Ukraine and I’ve never said otherwise.

That fucking Zelensky… Fuck him for standing up to russia

Indeed fucking Zelensky. Not for standing up to Russia though, but for murdering other people to achieve his political / ideological goals. If he wouldn’t kidnap people and treat them worse then dogs, I would support him (at least to some extent - as I said previously I believe that in case of Crimea and Donbas it was the will of the people to join Russia, but I don’t think it was the case with the other annexed territories), and possibly even donate. But in the current situation - supporting him is equivalent to supporting killing of my friends, family and every other Ukrainian still trapped there. How can I do that? Other people would support him as well. But for now, don’t you think that it is absolutely logical for Ukrainians who dare to want to live - to actually support Russia? It is in our interest for Russia to win, because this is the scenario where we get to live, and in the other scenario we die. This is why I (and many other people, it’s just that you won’t hear that in western media, because that is not the current narration. Surprisingly, you might actually start hearing more about that, because now even some of my very pro-Zelensky friends started to wake up as well. Unsurprisingly this happened because now it started to affect them as well, it was okay for them when it was other people’s problem) hate Zelensky - he makes it impossible for us to support our own fucking country, supporting the invader is the only logical choice if you throw emotions out of it.

and trying to steer the country towards the EU and NATO, right?

In the last negotiations before Zelensky had forbidden negotiations with Russia, it was agreed that Russia doesn’t mind Ukraine joining EU.

Russia took Crimea and that was fine because it was theirs to begin with or whatever right? Georgia Ossetia and Abkhazia ? Chechnya? Transnistria? All of these democratically elected to be “independent” or to be russian right? Definitely nothing going on there.

I am not saying either of those things are okay or not okay (as well as other countries annexing other countries’ territories btw), because it depends on whether the people there wanted to part of Russia or not (and we cannot know this for sure, as different sides will claim differently).
As for the Crimea in particular though, I was there a few times while it still belonged to Ukraine, and the people I’ve met there were mostly extremely pro-Russian and some were openly saying they would like to be a part of Russia. But of course this is a hearsay, and you may have heard different things (which wouldn’t mean that either one of us is wrong!), but as I said before I do not assert that this is okay or not okay, I am only saying that I find it quite possible that in case of Crimea it was indeed will of the people (which would make it okay).
The same applies to Donbas - while I have never been there, I’ve met people from there and some of them were pro-Ukrainian some of them were pro-Russian, I met more pro-Russian ones (but again, I agree that this is a hearsay).
As for the other annexed Ukrainian territories and the countries/regions you’ve mentioned - I have never spoken with people from those territories, so again I do not assert it was fine or not fine, as it depends on what people of those territories think - and I do now know that.

And well, I personally know plenty of Ukrainians that aren’t hiding and they haven’t been drafted yet

Everybody I know who hasn’t managed to escape and is of the draft age and isn’t a college student is trying to hide.

So I don’t see why they’d need to resort to kidnappings to get people on the frontlines.

And yet they do.
https://uadraftmuseum.ch
Because Zelensky’s propaganda repeated by western media is saying that everybody wants to fight Russia and everybody volunteers, while the reality is completely different, and who could have thought - people want to live instead of dying for their politicians (which is what Zelensky with support from the west is doing). And speaking out this fact, that people want to live, and that it is not okay to kill them, makes people call me fascist here. To clarify - I am not saying there are no volunteers, I even have some distant relatives who have volunteered, but they are a minority, the regime needs to kidnap people from the streets in order to survive.

Go on twitch and other streaming services and you can talk to them yourself.

I have no need for that, it’s only logical that not everybody has been kidnapped yet, they do it when they need more people for the meat grinder.
And as I said - for now not everybody needs to fear being kidnapped at any time, as they are not touching some groups of people currently. But they already lowered the age of acceptable kidnapping from 27 to 25, and some even say that kidnapping 18 year olds is only a matter of time (I’ve read stories about how they have already kidnapped a few kids, and even girls, it’s just that for now they let them go when they discover their age/gender, but for how long? let me know if you want me to try to find those stories :) ). Some say that women should get the same treatment.