Summary
Churches across the U.S. are grappling with dwindling attendance and financial instability, forcing many to close or sell properties.
The Diocese of Buffalo has shut down 100 parishes since the 2000s and plans to close 70 more. Nationwide, church membership has dropped from 80% in the 1940s to 45% today.
Some churches repurpose their land to survive, like Atlanta’s First United Methodist Church, which is building affordable housing.
Others, like Calcium Church in New York, make cutbacks to stay open. Leaders warn of the long-term risks of declining community and support for churches.
Christianity or science. It can’t be both. There’s either magic or there’s not magic. If there’s magic, science is meaningless.
Different spheres: one can be science and the other cosplay.
Begging your pardon, but the likes of CS Lewis, Francis Collins, and Jesus of Nazareth would like to have a word with you about that… e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:21, “be skeptical about everything”, and John 13:34 “be ye not giant dickeths to one another”.
Or there’s 1 Timothy 5:18 “the worker deserves their wages”, or Deuteronomy 24:15 “pay your workers the very same day” (literally: “before the sun sets, bc they need it”), or James 1:27 “offer healthcare regardless of ability to pay”, and so on.
It turns out that religious numbnuts who refuse to read anything at all but keep making up new rules to add to the pile (heaping heavy burdens onto people without bothering to lift a finger to help)… don’t really know much of anything? Not about what “freedom” is, or “love”, or “religion” either. Go figure!? 🤪 Maybe it would help if instead of listening to child rapists who just want their money (and children) they would instead pick up a book - any book - and read it!?
So yeah, fuck religious hypocrites. Seriously, Jesus in Matthew 23: 1 - 12 says exactly that too:
and
I find that people of any faith whatsoever - Christianity, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. - share a lot in common if they are not extremists. And right now there’s a lot of value in atheism since nearly everyone is “first generation”, but eventually atheism will fall prey to the same fate as well - it’s human nature, and no system or belief is perfect. But I do think it helps to accurately diagnose the issue and point the blame more squarely where it belongs, i.e. the tribal “in-group=good but out-group=bad” is something that would be fantastic to get past as quickly as possible.
Bc to me your words seem to line up perfectly with 1 Thessalonians 5:21, hence you even agree with Jesus that most people calling themselves “Christians” (or “patriots” or whatever) are fucking idiots, however strange that sounds.
None of that has to do with the fact that the universe can either have magic or science, not both.
As Jesus Himself once said too, then made conditions for women better than they had ever been before.
Anyway “magic” is simply something that has not yet been explained. Fire. Electricity. Herbs. All were magic at one point, to those who did not know how they worked.
No. Magic is magic. There is no rational scientific explanation for what happens in the book of Genesis. The seven day creation, the talking snake, the great flood, the Tower of Babel story: magic. There is no science there, there will never be science there. What is discussed there is not scientifically possible.
You either have a universe that obeys physical laws reliably or you don’t. The universe of the Bible does not.
It’s an either/or. Science or magic.
If I were a time traveler, or alien, or something, that’s almost how I’d explain how the Earth came about to primitives.
Day 1: Light (despite no stars yet?! yes literally the entire universe was on fire at one point, just gleaming light but no matter yet)
Day 2: Atmosphere
Day 3: Dry ground aka continents & plants (tbf here “plants” is a little incongruous, unless things like photosynthetic bacteria and algae are meant rather than later more complex multicellular forms)
Day 4: Sun, moon & stars -> the volcanic air clears so you can finally look up and see them, also the O2 paved the way for mitochondrial-containing eukaryotes
Day 5: Birds & sea creatures (birds is highly incongruous here, unless it just means “flying things” aka insects in which case it matches perfectly)
Day 6: Land animals & eventually humans
Day 7: no more “magic”, i.e. humans are so recent that nothing else major has happened in the last ~350k years or so.
Day 8: nothing prevents this from coming - perhaps we’ll go to space, perhaps we’ll die out, perhaps this simulator will end and our personalities will become used to make us all into sex/worker bots for the “real” people one dimension above us. Wouldn’t that suck? 😕 Or be fun I guess, depending on the person. 😳
I cannot say what the nature of reality is bc I have no clue, myself. All I’m saying is that if a preacher says “let me ass-rape your kid”, maybe someone should say no, but if they say like “hey, workers deserve their wages so maybe people should not be slaves?” then it’s worth paying attention to - not because and rather, I get it, in spite of the fact that it comes from a religious person, but even so it’s what is said rather than who says it that seems the most important.
Fuck “religion”, but “love one another”? THAT I am down with:-).
“Primitives” have the same brains we do today and were capable of understanding the same things we are.
So that time traveller or alien is a condescending and ignorant asshole for putting it to them in those generally false terms.
Is that really what you want to go with? That “primitives” can’t understand concepts like “the entire universe expanded from a single point” or “it took many, many, many years for this to happen?”
Also…
What the fuck are you even talking about here?
Sounds like some scientology bs.
Lol that’s the problem then - bc even today, what do we really “know”!? It’s not about intelligence though it’s cultural - what did they care about knowing then? Like what is a “point” and why would it matter if the universe came from one or many of them? And obviously it took a great deal of time - building anytime at all does not happen instantly.
Moreover there’s an ancient Semite vs. modern English translation issue with the words - that identical word “day” for instance is translated elsewhere as “season” and a bunch of other stuff, so basically 7 epochs / eras? Like LOTR where we came in on basically the end of the age of the elves, as it transitioned into the age of men.
It’s a story, meant to be told to children. The same way that we today preach the miracle of Santa Claus - which supposedly prepares kids for learning that not everything they are taught is strictly speaking “true”, and therefore that they need to question everything to sort the truths from the lies. Whether we think it through in those terms or not, that tradition survived somehow?
There are many philosophers, like Daniel Dennett the famous (and now late) atheist counter-apologist, that provide many examples of how religion has been helpful in the past, to get us from purely and literal tribal cultures to great nation-states. It’s our history, and it got us here to today, right or wrong.
Anyway you can go to ideological war with the 84% of people world-wide that affiliate with some kind of religion if you want (according to this Pew study, but I’m saying that there are allies within Christianity, within Muslim, within Buddhism, etc. who are capable of rational thought. Even as there are also a handful of atheists who, perhaps having inherited their beliefs, are dumb as fuck. There are fewer, and the system does not encourage that, but it does happen.
I outright enjoy talking with people of any religious background who genuinely believe whatever they believe, so long as they are willing to critically examine the nature of their beliefs. Such people are much more likely to arrive at whatever “truth” is out there to find, than someone sitting still who isn’t listening to anyone. Question everything - sound familiar? It’s both the atheist creed (or was at some point) as well as literally commanded in the Christian worldview (not that people give a damn about what the Bible says) as well as practically the scientific motto.
Or at least it used to be. People seem to be redefining what “science” means these days, as in science is why planes fly - it’s not though, science is the PROCESS that lead to the DISCOVERY of HOW planes fly. So how is it that religious people are doing the questioning process more than some modern atheists, who simply say “this is the way the world works”?
To be clear, I have no idea how the world works. I wasn’t there when it started, I only know what I can see now, which is extremely limited. Hence why I prefer my answer as being “I do not know”, rather than “I know and let me tell you how it happened…”
Our two answers are much more similar than I think you realize. But they do differ somewhat in important ways too, although it sounds like you are triggered so let’s end it here: I know exactly what you are saying and if you think about it you’ll see what I was trying to convey, but there seems little point to going more rounds just emotionally venting our upset feelings at the fuckers who misuse their authority as “leaders” of their communities to abuse people - including but not limited to children. Maybe authoritarianism thought control to abolish all religion everywhere would do the trick, but so long as wishes were horses then we all would ride, and I think there are better ways - and that’s what I was trying to convey. Not that magic exists as a replacement for science (although again, it does exist when viewed from the other side of it - i.e. to those who don’t understand the principles yet, how could it be viewed as anything but magic? If we were suddenly picked up by sufficiently advanced aliens, we would react no differently ourselves, bc as you said, we really aren’t any different at all from those that came before, only our culture has shifted).
How about you back up some of those claims with evidence.
Especially this one:
And this one:
Magic is just the stuff that science hasn’t proven yet. Emphasis on the “yet”.
EDIT: Before anyone else misunderstands what I meant, I’m not saying every aspect of Christianity or the Bible will inevitably be proven (though I can see how it can be read that way, hence this edit).
I’m saying that magic is what we can “observe” happening but not be able to explain with science. The ratio of magic to science has been rapidly shrinking in the last century or so, and I’m suggesting that we will continue to understand “magic” (or, the previously-unexplained) better as science progresses.
When books like the Bible were written, there was a lot more “magic”/unexplainable stuff. Of course, there were likely also misunderstandings and fabrications. It shouldn’t be taken as a reliable account of observations, either, so its magic will not necessarily be explained by science, just as Harry Potter’s won’t.
That’s not magic. Magic is supernatural, meaning it does not obey physical laws.
If things do not always obey physical laws, such as much of what happens in the Bible in terms of magic, then how can you ever trust the scientific method?
How is there a valid scientific method in a universe where 40 days of rain covers an entire planet with water or a staff can be thrown onto the ground and turned into a snake?
Not defending the Bible, but I think a lot of the big claims of the Bible (that take place in the “real world”) could be attributed to mistranslations, misunderstandings, or lies.
Like I said, Christianity or science. It can’t be both. If it’s a mistranslation, a misunderstanding or a lie, it doesn’t matter. The Bible as written and believed as the fundamental doctrine of Christianity says it’s true.
And if there is no magic, Jesus loses a great deal of his importance. He’s certainly not worthy of worship if he had no magic powers. Veneration, maybe, but hell defies any sort of scientific scrutiny. A fiery furnace for an etherial soul, as it is described, makes no sense in a rational world.
My head canon is that Jesus was kind of a flamboyant street magician (if not a con artist) whose tricks were exaggerated by storytellers of the time.
Optimistically, things in the Bible weren’t meant to be taken literally, but got corrupted over the centuries. And it also explicitly became a tool to control people.
I think that people who take the Bible literally are probably going against the idea that the authors and Jesus (separately) had about what they’d said/written.
But I’m an Atheist, not a theologist or anything, lol
Optimistic and not reflective of the beliefs at the time. Jesus himself is pretty explicit about following the Old Testament laws, so I’m guessing he thought the rest of it was true or he wouldn’t say to follow them considering there are 613 of them. And the Jesus story fulfils a bunch of Old Testament prophecy, which means that seeing into the future is possible and cause-and-effect are reversible.
Good point!
It’s allegory. I am an atheist but the magic doesn’t actually need to exist for the morality tale’s conclusion to exist. Religion uses mysticism because it’s a philosophical shortcut for idiots, but the real intention has always been to push some pretty stabdard normative ethics on the population. In some cases those things are good like “don’t be a jealous prick,” and sometimes they are bad, like “fear the outsiders.” And in many cases they are just anachronistic.
Honestly, as much as I truly want the world to be mature enough for secular versions of this philosophy, I would also be totally fine if we could just scare people into not running red lights, or wearing masks when sick, via some divine cosmic consequences framework. But the older I get the more I realize how much religion plays a role in keeping idiots in line. It just needs continued updating for modern times.
I agree completely. And it seems like it continues to be used that way, but not for good – it tends to get idiots to fall in line with fascists. Not all the time, but in many parts of the world, this seems to be what’s happening.
Science hasn’t proven people can’t walk on water, turn blood into wine, or resurrect from death?
Wasn’t aware those were still up in the air.
Hoverboots, alien yeast Gatorade, Android or regenerative body parts
I missed the part of the New Testament where Jesus scored a sweet pair of hoverboots and a pallet of Gatorade.
Alien cyborg hoverboots that look like regular legs and the Gatorade was in powdered form
Well, I mean, obviously.
I didn’t get my point across properly. Read my edit if you’re interested. I was referring to magic in general, not the magic in the Bible.
Personally, I think the truths of each of your points would be things like mistranslations, misunderstandings, unreliable testimonies, or fabrications.
…but to get into semantics, the scientific method can’t really prove a negative. And by early definitions of “death”, we are able to resurrect people now.