This guy in my city had anti vaxx banners and signs. One said “50k+ Canadians suffered side effects from the COVID vaccine!”
So I looked up how many people were vaccinated in Canada, and 50k was below 1% of the people vaccinated. I pointed out to the guy that this means the vaccine had a success rate without side effects of 99% and how incredible that is. Dude got pissed at me and started yelling that I was a shill.
I guess he didn’t like math and common sense
Not to be that guy but 50,000 people is still a lot. Percentages are great because if they’re very low we tend to like that but it doesn’t change the absolute number.
The real comparison isn’t how safe the vaccine is, its how safe the vaccine is compared to getting the disease it’s preventing. Every medical product is not about zero harm or low harm, it’s about harm reduction. If medical therapies didn’t cause harm, we wouldn’t have chemo treatments and we would be much worse at treating cancers.
Also though that 50k side effects is vague, what did the sign mean? A side effect can be a mild headache or rash, which I would imagine is the majority of those cases. A 99% rate for any medicine is incredible
I’ve had people tell me and my friends similar things to this. Some people just aren’t good with numbers and can’t put them into perspective with other numbers and arrive at scary conclusions with no further context. Canada has 40+ million people and side effects can include trivial things such as feeling tired or having a sore arm. On a similar note, 2 of the COVID vaccines were mRNA based and some people were scaremongering about how the vaccines must somehow alter your DNA because both “mRNA” and “DNA” sound vaguely similar.
So there are actually levels to antivaxxers. The granola nuts that think putting anything into your body is a sin are actually the extreme minority or antivaxxers these days.
The average antivaxxer is someone who has extremely little faith in both big pharma and the government as a whole. They usually come from a community that has been screwed over by both. In the US, this translates to older first generation immigrants, the African American community, and low income white people in areas that were hit hard by the opoid crisis.
A lot of these people are cool with the traditional flu vaccine, because it’s been around forever. The covid vaccines on the other hand were met with skepticism, on account of it being “untested”. In their eyes FDA testing and positive media coverage don’t mean anything, because in their eyes both groups have lied to their faces in the past.
A lot of the antivaxxer discourse during covid frustrated me. While there were people who were legitimately just idiots, there were a lot of communities who had fears rooted in genuine trauma and frustration. Calling them a bunch of idiotic death cultists and then celebrating on social media when one of them died just resulted in those communities distrusting the system further.
Safe And Effective*
*While supply last. Subject to the oversight of the FDA, which could become politicized upon the inauguration of a new administration. ahem RFK Jr. ahem (Better hope he doesn’t add bleach to vaccines)
Better hope he doesn’t add bleach to vaccine
My life has improved so much since I embraced a so called ‘evil,’ and ‘destructive’ brain worm. Libs preach unity, but can’t understand the power of many minds united into one. Sad!
To piggyback off this:
Not to be that guy, but I have an immediate family member who got their booster and (I don’t remember what the technical term was, apologies) their immune system started attacking their nerves, which caused them to lose most control over their hands, arms, feet, and legs, and at the worst point, become bedridden and at risk of dying, had they not received the care they did (I’ve been told the docs said ‘a few more days and it would have been too late’). They are recovering, still, almost 3y later; daily care, wheelchair, walker, weekly therapy. It’s been a very slow process, and they only got the help they needed because another family member is in the medical field and was able to correctly diagnose their situation, when their main (prior, now) gp shrugged it off as the flu (???) twice, even as their condition was worsening and painfully obviously not just “the flu”. I have heard of friends of friends who seem to have had this phenomenon occur, but were not as lucky to receive (the correct) treatment in time.
Two other family members who got the booster at the same time had no issues. I got mine a couple months after, with no issues. They are usually safe… but not always. Practicing medicine, studying science; never absolutes. Healthy dose of skepticism is okay. But weigh the risks logically, not just “this can happen so I’m never going to do X”, as sometimes X can save you from Y. My mom in particular was freaking out when I got my booster - understandable, but it’s one risk over another.
E: autocorrect shenanigans
I usually don’t engage in conversations like this but let’s try. The condition you are describing is an autoimmune disease known as Gillain-Barre (Also, sometimes called acute inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy or AIDP). It is a devastating disease and I am sorry that your loved one has had to cope with it.
This disease can be triggered by any number of exposures including vaccination not just to COVID but to any vaccine. It is truly something to be concerned about and an important thing to understand when making health decisions. Essentially, when your immune system is exposed to something it thinks is foreign (Like a virus, viral protein from a vaccine, or bacteria) you body trys to fight it by making antibodies. The anti bodies attach to it and inactive or kill the virus. Rarely (like 1 in 100000ish) the body makes antibodies that also attach to something that it should not like your own body. If that thing happens to be a spinal nerve you develop this disorder.
If you are concerned about it, you should ABSOLUTELY get the vaccine. You are orders of magnitude more likely to get AIDP (Gillain-Barre) from contracting a native virus than you are from the vaccine. Also, you are more likely to spread the virus causing death and the same low chance of AIDP (Gillain-Barre) to others.
When a vaccine is deemed “safe and effective” that is not to say it is without any risk. Any exposure carries risk. It means that our society is more likely to be healthy with it than without it. Both on an individual and population level. People are concerned about the antigens (things that generate an immune response) in vaccines but you have many more antigenic exposures in the world without vaccines than with them.
Yeah, I agree with all your points - mine boils to just giving a real-world example that “safe and effective” does not mean “completely safe” or “completely effective”. Just like if you are driving to a dealership to trade in your old beater for a 5-star safety rated car, just to be hit and killed by a F-450 on the way there; trying to protect yourself still comes with risk. Everything, everyday, is a risk. Not taking action, is a risk. Just need to evaluate the best course of action for whatever situation, and act.
It’s like that freak accident where someone lived because they didn’t have the seatbelt attached.
Also, when you vaccinate 100 million, people still get MS (for example) but they like to blame the vaccine for it.
Its always true that nothing is 100% safe. To decide if something is safe you have to evaluate how likely unwanted side effects are and what those Side effects are. Theres always a risk to get some reallllllly bad side effects but in the most cases this doesn’t happen.
Exactly - my sibling just got dealt a shitty hand in trying to stay safe. There’s no absolutes in life, unfortunately.
Oh yea, Vaccines are not 100% safe, the point is that Vaccines will protect more than 99% of people, unfortunately there are cases where there are adverse reactions. My cousin had some heart problems like hours after getting the 2nd dose and and to go to the ER and had to get some surgery (idk all the details), and had to spend several days in ICU, then still have heart issues and weakness even after gettinf discharged from the hospital, have trouble even going to school. Caused a bit of vaccine skepticism amongst my extended family, not everyone gotten fully vaccinated at the time, I’m not sure if they ever got it eventually, or if that incident caused too much fear.
MRNA or viral vector vaccine (like AstraZeneca)? I’m not even in the vicinity of being knowledgeable about medicine but AFAIK that vaccine was the one causing myocarditis not the MRNA based.
I got a sample size of about 15 family members and a few acquaitances (including a cancer patient in chemo, a 90 year old and some kids) who all got Biontech/Pfizer MRNA vaccines except one who got AstraZeneca. The MRNA ones caused no side effects as per my inquiry the one with AstraZeneca was the only one with short term side effects. And another one who got a flu shot in parallel to Biontech who was ill for a few days.
I got most of the boosters up to JN.1 and I haven’t even had the mild aches at the injection point.
This is in the US during those early days, at the time, the only approved ones are all MRNA 2-dose vaccines, very likely Pfizer.
Seems correct. Didn’t even get approval at all in the US and the company withdrew their application. So yeah. I don’t want to doubt the experiences of your relative especially when it was so close to the vaccination. Could’ve actually been a serious side effect. I just never heard of it in my circles. What I heard of were friends who got covid multiple times and contracting more illnesses like respiratory viruses or stomach bugs over time aka wrecking their immune system.
Even if any of this is true, which I very much doubt, what evidence do you have that your relative’s illness was caused by the vaccine?
It was the only change in their day-to-day life (they, and myself, are both housebound due to disabilities), and is a known risk of any injection, afaik. I’m not into the med field myself so this is all secondary knowledge, but I found the name of the condition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain–Barré_syndrome (jeez that’s a mangled url).
Doubt all you want, but I watched it unfold over the course of a week before they were admitted to the hospital, and stayed there for over a month before being able to return home. I watched the difficulties grow, and I went to see them in the hospital a couple weeks after being admitted. It was absolutely heartbreaking. They already had enough to deal with before it occurred (physical and cognitive impairments, from birth) and it was just… just really trying, showing strength and being positive while scared I was going to lose a sibling.
E: paragraph two, “Sometimes this immune dysfunction is triggered by an infection or, less commonly, by surgery, and by vaccination.”
People can be potentially allergic to ingredients they put in vaccines. Have you ever gotten a vaccine where they ask you if you’re allergic to eggs beforehand? And that’s a more common ingredient.
If you have an allergy, even a tiny amount of the substance you are allergic to can cause a severe reaction. That’s why single bee stings have killed people.
That too, though they (and myself) have no known allergies.
I’ve thinking about getting tested, as I know my mother is deathly allergic to seafood, for example. Found that out as her windpipe constructed at a restaurant, apparently (before my time). I don’t want to find out that my body doesn’t jive with something as I’m rushing to the ER…
Huh, that’s a fun thought. If the bird flu turns into a pandemic (there’s a prediction market that gives 16% for it, which is pants-shittingly terrifyingly high), we’ll get to see how the Trump administration deals with one. And that… can go various ways.
On one hand, there’s tons of anti-vaxxers in the Trump voting base and presumably this will affect the government, which is concerning. But on the other hand, one of the biggest problems in the COVID handling was when FDA stopped people from using already-created vaccines for idiotic bureaucracy considerations while people were literally dying by the million. That’s the sort of thing that could go a lot better with just one presidential decision speeding it up, and there’s a bunch of new people with power in the government now, like Elon Musk. Muskrat is a horrible person and kind of insane in some ways, but not stupid and I think he’d notice and act upon an opportunity like that. So I’m not totally pessimistic about how a new pandemic would go, either.
You just need 1 person you know working in a morgue. That’s enough to convince you that the last pandemic was really bad.
You don’t get it. They are part of the conspiracy. Same as all the flight personnel with chemtrails. Everything is a big conspiracy, except that Facebook post made by some anonymous account, that’s real.
Sorry, I can’t hear you over the sound of being dead because I took the COVID vaccine.
I was told I’d be dead in 5 years because of the covid Vax. So like… Nice talking to you all. This is my year.
First it was one year. Then it was two. Now it’s five. Soon it’ll be ten. The bullshit never stops.
Same like “in 10 years we will have fusion power”
The goalposts have moved so much that they have left the field and are now floating somewhere in point nemo.
In the next 100 years the covid vaccine will have killed nearly 100% of us
I am hella pro vaccine and after my third COVID vaccine I got horribly sick with COVID and I’m not getting any more. Do I think I would have even way more sick if I didn’t get vaccinated? I fully believe I would have been more sick if I wasn’t. But I’m done.
I’m struggling to follow your logic there.
Is there any?
At this stage, the people who still need to hear this are the people we’d like to get rid of, so that problem is probably going to solve itself
Those people often have children who’s only failure is to be born in such a family. Saying that the problem is going to solve itself is rather unempathic and will do quite some harm the said children of such people. (Just saying)
Don’t worry, this is just special retroactive abortionYeah sorry, I tend to get misantropic during the festivities. Right now doing harm to children is like you’re trying to sell it to me even more
The worst thing about it is that this kind of garbage is leaking out of the United States. US citizens are weird af and poorly educated.
Well at least they can be. We just have to raise the trust in actual clinical trials more. Its perfectly reasonable to be skeptical and cautious until there is actual proof that something is safe. And if the studies are done well, they sadly take longer than a pandemic takes to spread. But better late than never for sure.
Or remind people of the horrible specter that polio was, and the shadow it cast over society at the time. People lived in constant dread of catching something that could leave them physically ruined, and even wheelchair bound for the rest of their lives back then.
Covid, in its early strains, had the potential to leave you hospitalized and drowning in your own lungs for weeks as it ran its course. Granted, that’s not polio levels of bad… But that’s still weeks of hell, and several more years of hospital billing hell that I would like to avoid.
Weighing those outcomes, I opted for early access to the vaccine. Even though it was more to minimize the risk of an expensive hospital stay.
I love a clinical trial. Sign me the eff up. That being said, as you mention, there are some issues with the speed of trials. And in particular, the demographic spread that volunteers for clinical trials in the US is a problem because it’s typically a monolith: white women, college educated, generally healthy, ages 18-35 IIRC. Proportional representation is hard to find, and distrust in public health is (for good historical reasons) low in minority populations. Pulling in a wider swath of people isn’t possible, and researchers are missing massive chunks of data from which trust could be built.
Just a reminder: Animal Agriculture is the leading cause of Zoonoses (PDF: The infectious disease trap of animal agriculture)
Eat a plant based diet to limit pandemics!
No thanks, But I appreciate the info nonetheless
A) of fucking course
B) always important to say
Nuh uh, I get my immunization naturally by rolling around in shit and eating out of date food. Gotta not get any of that microplastic and microtrackers the Rockefeller’s put in the “vaccines”. FaceBook is my bible!
i do all of that and still get my vaccines. in a few years my immune system will be so powerful that nothing will be able to kill me
calm down drag
Got a friend who’s anti vax because they said a couple of their friends didn’t get vaccinated and were fine, those who did get it suffered from covid and got very sick.
So, get all your birds vaccinated, kids.
Don’t worry, RFK Jr will ban them.
Do we have an effective bird flu vaccine yet? The trouble is the couple of years before one is created.
The president once
saiddecreed “Inject bleach in your veins”RFK Jr. will declare bleach the new vaccine
The president once said decreed “Inject bleach in your veins”
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-inject-bleach-covid-19/
False.
And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.
Sounds like he was suggesting injecting disinfectant (bleach) to me.
He clarified later that that’s not what he meant, but I think he misspoke in the moment.
It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.
Sounds like he was suggesting injecting disinfectant (bleach) to me.
https://www.cdc.gov/infection-control/hcp/disinfection-sterilization/chemical-disinfectants.html
There are all types of “disinfectants”. Settling on bleach is your own hysterics. And I would be in strong disagreement that “And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning.” would be interpreted as injecting the disinfectant itself. There are many materials that we inject into bodies to take care of infections in a manner that could be “doing something like that”… Including what we call a “Vaccine”.
Further, https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/snopes-bias-credibility/
Snopes is left leaning. And even they understand that isn’t what he meant or was saying. I’m just tired of seeing this obviously incorrect shit. It makes people shy away from voting for more sane politicians. The easiest way you entrench people is by stating things that are obviously incorrect. Then they just point at it and say “well they’re obviously wrong about that, they must be wrong about everything else too”.
And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning.
Trump suggested injecting disinfectants. That’s what the quote said. That’s a really bad idea, whether it’s bleach or rubbing alcohol. Theoretically he could have been talking about injecting disinfectant into porus surfaces rather than people, but that isn’t the immediate interpretation.
Trump spoke carelessly, and said something dangerous as a result. He shouldn’t have, and it’s okay to critique him for doing so. We don’t want a President saying really stupid stuff without thinking, even if he doesn’t mean it.
And boy does he constantly keep saying really stupid stuff.
We’ve been making flu vaccines for a long time now, and the flu has always been a virus that comes in various strains so you need to renew the vaccine frequently (usually once a year, as opposed to other vaccines that can last you a decade), and the medical industry needs to know which strains to make vaccines for.
Part of the thing with covid was that it was novel, and the vaccines were as well, because they needed to be not just developed fast, but deployed fast.
This isn’t the first time H5N1 is making the rounds, and there have been vaccines for it for over a decade. Depending on where you live, your country may have a stockpile of vaccines or just ordered one.
The problems humanity will face with the virus is one of uneven distribution of vaccines due to uneven distribution of wealth, poor health care policies, and science denialism / vaccine conspiracy nightmares.
